User:IjonTichyIjonTichy
This is a Wikipedia user page. This is not an encyclopedia article or the talk page for an encyclopedia article. If you find this page on any site other than Wikipedia, you are viewing a mirror site. Be aware that the page may be outdated and that the user whom this page is about may have no personal affiliation with any site other than Wikipedia. The original page is located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:IjonTichyIjonTichy. |
Welcome and intro
Welcome. Please note this is not a Wikipedia (WP) article - this is only my user page, reflecting only my own personal views.
My main interest is the philosophy of antinatalism, especially the many different scientific, ethical, moral, logical and rational foundations of the philosophy. This includes (but is not limited to) deep understanding and acceptance of the factual, amply-evidenced science of evolution by natural selection and the key philosophical implications of that science (and more generally the key philosophical implications of all science and technology). This includes e.g. the understanding that sentient, feeling beings capable of feeling various forms of suffering (including e.g. pain, discomfort, deprivation, striving to satisfy needs and wants) are the only things of value in the universe. This also includes acceptance of atheism, and rejection of things such as anthropocentrism/ human supremacism, speciesism and logical fallacies.
In the face of uncertainty, coupled with a high likelihood of inflicting incalculable harm, it is essential to invoke what is known as the Precautionary Principle whenever the question of procreation is raised. The strong version of the Precautionary Principle necessarily encompasses the following:
- (1) The Precautionary Principle Proper, which says that if an action may cause grave harm, there is a case for counteracting measures to ensure that the action does not take place.
- (2) The Principle of Reverse Onus, under which it is the responsibility of those supporting an action to show that it is not seriously harmful, thereby shifting the burden of proof off those potentially harmed by the action (people, livestock, wildlife etc). In short, it is safety, rather than potential harm, that needs to be demonstrated. In the case of procreation, pronatalists have failed to show that reproduction is not significantly harmful.
- (3) The Principle of Alternative Assessment, stipulating that no potentially harmful action will be undertaken if there are alternative actions available that safely achieve the same goals as the action proposed. In the case of procreation, safe alternatives are clearly available, for example adopting a child and or adopting a nonhuman animal.
- (4) All societal deliberations bearing on the application of features 1 through 3 must be open, informed, and democratic, and must include all affected parties. Clearly the vast majority of procreation deliberations are closed, uninformed or misinformed, and undemocratic, and do not include the vast majority of affected parties including the newly born (before they are born) as well as the many people and nonhuman animals the newborn person will eventually affect/ impact during their lifetime.
I am interested in the generalization and extension of antinatalism to all living beings (not only humans). I hold an atheistic worldview that addresses the objective fact that all lifeforms are a byproduct of a needless chemical reaction that occurred billions of years ago.
Through unintelligent design, we evolved nervous systems hundreds of millions years ago, enabling us to feel pain. In turn, we became addicted to the burdens of chasing after the fulfillment of wants and needs in order to escape various forms of suffering.
Our nervous systems are hardwired to experience suffering far more than pleasure; both in intensity and duration. This brutal functionality of nature motivates species to stay alive long enough to pass their DNA to the next generation; hence why sex is so pleasurable.
Antinatalists (with a sentio-centrist worldview) recognize that the welfare of all living creatures (be it a turtle, goat or human) are of equal importance. This is juxtaposed to speciesism, which values one animal over another.
Life is a game of endless chasing after pointless things, it is a malignantly idiotic DNA molecule that has ran amok and has been causing enormous pain and suffering for hundreds of millions of years. Life/ nature/ evolution by natural selection is basically stupid, unintelligent, mindless, un-thinking, pointless reproduction just for the sake of reproduction (and life i.e. nature is also consumption/ sustenance/ survival-at-all-costs - including Predation - in order to enable reproduction).
The most important thing that separates humans from other animals is our intellectual capacity to see nature for what it truly is - it is a meat grinder/ a carnage - and then do something about it. There is no justification for nature’s cruel design. It’s wasteful, needless, pointless, and causes suffering.
- (.) nature sucks.
- (.) nurture is unnecessarily and unfairly inconsistent ... diversity, and inequality, has a practical limit ... negative threat outweighs positive potential
- (.) the future is more important than the present
- (.) engineered solutions are the only rational choice
- (.) shorten line between desire and fulfillment/satisfaction
- (.) violence is unsustainable as a solution to conflict
- (.) consciousnesses is not just the human experience ... there is a need to wean the human animal off its unnecessary addiction to animal exploitation.
- (.) the "choice" to live should be as free as possible - all humans should have the right to no longer exist (right to die). Antinatalists hope one day this right will be in every national constitution and accepted by all human rights organizations throughout the world.
These days, I am particularly spending a lot of time on Wikipedia, YouTube, Twitter, and Reddit in my ongoing efforts to deepen and broaden my understanding of antinatalism (all sentience), as well as the science of evolution by natural selection and the philosophical implications of that science (as well as of all science).
Prior to my focus on antinatalism, my main interests were human overpopulation and 'capitalism.' By 'capitalism' I mean the global industrial economy/ the global system of ownership of private property/ the financial profit motive/ inverted totalitarianism/ power, authority and dominance hierarchy/ structural classicism, structural corruption, systematically inherent violence and structural massive inequalities and inequities/ monopoly-finance capitalism (see, for example, Monthly Review)/ neoliberalism/ the insane ideology that infinite, limitless 'growth' on a finite, limited planet is both possible and desirable/ the ideology of 'growth' and 'development' and 'jobs' just for the sake of growth; and closely related topics, that is, the more than ten thousand years old, ongoing, and ever-accelerating process of the commodification, privatization, hollowing out, vulgarization, debasement, commercialization and conversion to money and monetary profit of almost all key aspects of life on the planet, including both human and non-human lives (wildlife, natural ecosystems etc, i.e. the biosphere), i.e., the transfer of the public wealth to create private riches.
I was particularly interested in the complex and complicated inter-relationships, interactions, inter-dependencies, mutual-dependencies and co-dependencies between human overpopulation (H.O.) and 'capitalism.' H.O. and capitalism are two highly detrimental processes that are inseparable from each other, they are deeply embedded within each other, are strongly interlinked and interwoven with each other, and they both greatly impact, reinforce, feed, fuel, strengthen and shape each other, facilitate the growth of each other, and exacerbate, escalate, compound, amplify and multiply each other.
I am also interested in the devastating impact of the combination/ intersection/ conglomeration of H.O. and 'capitalism' on all key aspects of life on the planet, including the severe, ongoing and ever-worsening global-wide ecocide and degradation and destruction of both human life as well as non-human life (wildlife, the natural environment/ ecosystems, etc i.e. the biosphere). The hybrid of H.O. and capitalism is waging a systematically inherent war of annihilation on livable ecology.
I am also interested in many different aspects of animals (wildlife, pets, livestock etc), nature, natural history, human history, human culture, STEMM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics and management), the scientific method, and rational skepticism.
Scheme of sustainable development: at the confluence of three preoccupations. Clickable. |
Some observations on editing Wikipedia
This section of my user page contains resources intended to assist Wikipedia (WP) editors.
Warning: This essay is in draft form, and thus somewhat rambling.
This essay contains advice based on my personal opinions as an individual Wikipedia contributor, and represents my own personal viewpoints only. The views expressed on these pages are mine alone and not those of the WP community, the Wikimedia foundation, my employer nor anyone else. Consider these views with discretion, and don't interpret this essay (or any of the viewpoints expressed on this user page) as a WP policy or guideline. And if you have a significantly different - or even a completely contradictory - set of viewpoints that you would like to share with me, please post a note on my user talk page listing the data/ evidence/ facts in support of your personal insights.
My views are based on browsing many WP articles and article talk pages, user pages and user talk pages, the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) archives, Administrators' Noticeboards archives, and various additional discussion boards (e.g. civility board, etc). There, I observed the behavior of some editors exhibiting nasty, hostile and disruptive behavior, including: lack of respect for other editors, personal attacks, disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, casting aspersions on others, using offensive language (including, but not limited to, abusive, rude, insulting or derogatory language), gaming the system, stonewalling, spurious argumentation (e.g. special pleading), creating and spreading Wikidrama and World Wrestling Federation-style melodrama, using wordplay formulated to mock users, WikiBullying, WikiBaiting and other forms of disruptive editing and disruptive behavior --- some sophisticated, subtle or indirect; some more crude.
I hope the material below would help you understand why you should refrain from violating the spirit, principles or letter of Wikipedia policies, and why you should not behave disruptively towards editors. I am personally opposed to all disruptive behavior. I strongly encourage you to be respectful and civil to the utmost in all your endeavors and to always strive to exhibit solidarity, camaraderie and generosity in all your interactions on WP. The best way to enforce civility is to model it in one's own interactions. But I also hope to discourage you from expecting that, just because you may act civilly towards others, they are obligated to reciprocate. Don't expect that others must behave courteously just because you acted in a friendly, polite, respectful fashion. More generally, you will be a considerably happier editor if you stop expecting Wikipedia to be rational, fair, coherent, consistent, or anything like that. Additionally, if you find contributing to Wikipedia isn't enjoyable, I'd log off until such time (if ever) you find that it might be.
On WP articles with contentious subject matter, a small group of full time editors with a more-or-less commonly shared ideology, beliefs or viewpoints can successfully push their POV in the article (in covert and/or overt ways). In the majority of cases these editors don't even need to coordinate their efforts or intentionally collaborate or cooperate in any substantial way (nor are they members of a conspiracy, cabal or cult); nonetheless, they may be likely to prevail in some editorial and behavioral disputes with those who simply can't afford the enormous time investment. These issues (as well as many additional insights on Wikipedia) are developed more fully in various user-contributed essays on WP (e.g. in the extended quotes I provide below from WP: Expert retention and from the user pages of User: The Devil's Advocate, User: NE Ent and User: Beyond My Ken ).
Wikipedia is based on loose collaboration between WP community members. However, high alignment of the participants is essential. Overall, there is a high degree of alignment among WP community members. The alignment is provided by the core policies of NPOV (Neutral Point of View), V (Verifiability), RS (Reliable Sources) and Wikipedia:NOR (No Original Research), as well as many additional [important, although somewhat less important] policies, guidelines, rules etc, as well as a small army of administrators willing and able to enforce the alignment. The administrators also have the willingness and ability to temporarily block the access of abusive users to editing Wikipedia articles, i.e., the access of users whose article editing actions and/ or behaviors towards other users fall significantly out of alignment with Wikipedia’s core tenets and are disruptive to the continued development of the encyclopedia. Administrators’ actions on Wikipedia are not intended to punish abusive users – they are only intended to bring violators back into alignment with the letter – and more importantly the spirit - of Wikipedia’s core philosophy/ tenets/ goals/ reason for existence (raison d'être). Thus, it is correct to emphasize the loose collaboration of the members of the community, but we should not risk glorifying loose collaboration too much, without sufficient emphasis on the fact that a moderate amount of structure/ coordination/ enforcement is essential to ascertain members of the community remain highly aligned with Wikipedia's most basic, most fundamental vision/ tenets/ goals/ objectives/ spirit/ philosophy/ reason-for-existence/ foundational policies.
In the sequel, I discuss some issues related to editing WP. As always, don't accept my words unquestioningly. Read critically and skeptically, and verify all data/ evidence/ facts for yourself based on your own research and your own reliable sources.
- From Jimbo Wales' talk page:
- I am extremely, extremely frustrated with my recent edit experience. I edited the Mazda article yesterday to add a little information about keiretsu. (See [1]) My edit was deemed 'irrelevant' and was quickly reverted. It seemed to be a judgmental call and editor(s) refused to engage in any serious discussion.[2] My attempt to draw in attention at the Administrators' noticeboard was quickly shut down, by the same editor [3]. My question is: is there a place in Wiki for editors like me, who lack time and experience, to contribute, and to reflect the ideas of many? Or the Wiki community would only accept those few with more experience and time. The outcome would mean whether this was my last participation into this (once) great project of you. Sincerely,--Now wiki (talk) 19:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
- Step #1 is discuss at Talk:Mazda, not the user talk pages. Try that first, but be aware it may take a few days or a week to attract enough users. Step #2 is Be patient. Otherwise, the next steps to take are listed at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution (i.e., WP:3O, WP:RFC, WP:DRN, etc.). If your edits are correct and appropriate, they will eventually prevail in some form, but be prepared to accept compromise and/or rejection. Rgrds. --64.85.215.214 (talk) 20:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
- Try editing 20 different pages before getting demoralized: It is easy to imagine WP having degenerated into a hostile place which rejects all newcomers; however, try to update several articles, and compare the experiences when working on each page. If a person only visited the beaches at Nice (France) they might conclude all beaches have stones, or only swam at Mombasa then conclude all beaches have seaweed, or only walked at Virginia Beach, VA then might think all beaches have extensive white sand. Edit 20 articles for a few days and compare a variety of results. -Wikid77 21:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
- Step #1 is discuss at Talk:Mazda, not the user talk pages. Try that first, but be aware it may take a few days or a week to attract enough users. Step #2 is Be patient. Otherwise, the next steps to take are listed at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution (i.e., WP:3O, WP:RFC, WP:DRN, etc.). If your edits are correct and appropriate, they will eventually prevail in some form, but be prepared to accept compromise and/or rejection. Rgrds. --64.85.215.214 (talk) 20:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
- From Jimbo Wales' talk page:
- I take no strong view on the wisdom of the original topic ban, nor on the wisdom of lifting it now. As a general principle, tendentious and speculative editing can be wrong, even if the editor is proven right in the long run about the underlying facts. But on the other hand, and also as a general principle, we ought to be kind and forgiving and always willing to give people a chance to learn and improve. It is up to the community to sift through the facts and come to an informed judgment call about particular cases. The main reason I'm posting here, then, is to suggest that blocking someone based on a post to my talk page raising the general issue of lifting a topic ban (and engaging in part with the topic itself) strikes me as unwise in the long run. One of the important principles of Wikipedia is that we ought to be open to thoughtful disagreement and dissent, and my talk page has by long tradition been somewhat of a haven for people to come and raise broader philosophical issues. There are limits to this, of course - it wouldn't be wise to allow my talk page to become a useless battleground for editors who have been excluded elsewhere! But the occasional post there, which would not be welcome elsewhere, strikes me as a useful safety valve, and also a good way for me to keep in touch with edge issues in the community.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support. I've the impression that the general editing climate on the relevant pages isn't so good, you have to look at the behavior of all editors in that context. Sceptre has had a time out from that area, I think Sceptre's return will improve the editing climate. Count Iblis (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why exactly would unbanning someone who was topic banned for a large amount of disruption improve the editing climate? To me it looks like it would just add more fuel to the fire. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Being inside a group where there are tensions can over time cause someone to lose a reasonable sense of perspective, you can get dragged down into a mindset where you feel the need to prove your point in various unproductive ways (you don't see that it is unproductive yourself, of course). If you have left that group, it may well be the remaining editors whose behavior is now less than ideal (e.g. BaseballBuggs has been mentioned on Jimbo's page). So, the person returning will have regained a more reasonable perspective and will be able to have a more positive impact on the group. Count Iblis (talk) 16:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why exactly would unbanning someone who was topic banned for a large amount of disruption improve the editing climate? To me it looks like it would just add more fuel to the fire. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support. I've the impression that the general editing climate on the relevant pages isn't so good, you have to look at the behavior of all editors in that context. Sceptre has had a time out from that area, I think Sceptre's return will improve the editing climate. Count Iblis (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- From this subsection of Wikipedia: Arbitration --- The Arbitration Committee is the ultimate dispute resolution method. Although disputes usually arise from a disagreement between two opposing views on how articles should read, the Arbitration Committee explicitly refuses to directly rule on which view should be adopted. Statistical analyses suggest that the committee ignores the content of disputes and focuses on the way disputes are conducted instead, functioning not so much to resolve disputes and make peace between conflicting editors, but to weed out problematic editors while allowing potentially productive editors back in to participate. Therefore, the committee does not dictate the content of articles, although it sometimes condemns content changes when it deems the new content violates Wikipedia policies (for example, if the new content is biased). (Comment: the committee may (directly) rule that a content change is inappropriate, but may NOT (directly) rule that a certain content is inappropriate.) Its remedies include cautions and probations (used in 63.2% of cases) and banning editors from articles (43.3%), subject matters (23.4%) or Wikipedia (15.7%). Complete bans from Wikipedia are largely limited to instances of impersonation and anti-social behavior. When conduct is not impersonation or anti-social, but rather anti-consensus or violating editing policies, warnings tend to be issued. (Comment: this needs to be clarified. Anti-consensus behavior appears to be defined mostly as "edit warring".)
- Paraphrasing WP:Don't assume: If you don't feel like assuming good faith about another user's actions, you don't have to. You can still give the benefit of the doubt by simply not assuming, one way or another. As User:JeffBillman put it: If I may offer a bit of unsanctioned advice: Assume nothing. Don't assume good faith, even though that's something of a rule here on Wikipedia. Don't assume another editor has a particular intent, whether "good" or "bad". Don't even assume another editor is a human rather than a dog. Why? Because when you make any assumption, even one of good faith, you are creating for yourself an illusion from which the truth may disappoint you. More pertinently, you expect a series of interactions from your fellow editors that may or may not be fulfilled. Ultimately, you reduce your fellow editors to your own prejudices and preconceptions. If instead you assume nothing, nobody will ever correctly accuse you of assuming bad faith, and you will never fall short of the ideal of assuming good faith. Indeed, it's the best way out of that thought trap. Cheers, JeffBillman (talk) 03:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- "What do I think? Well, at the risk of sounding rude, I couldn't care any less. Let's put it this way: I don't assume there's any truth to Niteshift's claim of being a member of the "vast right wing conspiracy". I don't assume that it's a lie, either; or a joke, or anything else. It is to me, simply a statement Niteshift wished to share with readers of his userspace, for reasons I'm rather disinterested in knowing at the moment. Because of this, I don't assume anything about Niteshift when I read his contributions here. I find this to be a much more tenable position than the assumption of "good faith" Wikipedia asks us to maintain. Because I don't assume good faith per se, it's also difficult for me to assume bad faith. I'll admit this is a fairly recent discovery of mine. Up until recently, I tried to assume good faith of my fellow editors, and failed miserably at times. This seems to be working out for me thus far. Just a suggestion ..." JeffBillman (talk) 16:00, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- From Wikipedia: No angry mastodons: "A related mistake is to speculate about the intellectual capacity or the mental health of other editors. People do not rise to their best selves when they are reminded of their worst selves or accused of faults they do not possess. Editors who make these accusations exhibit poor self-control. Leave the angry mastodons in the Ice Age and focus on the article."
- Ijon Tichy note: In other words, don't assume any user attributes at all, e.g. whether they are intelligent or not, whether they have integrity or not, whether they are a "good" or "bad" person, etc. Furthermore, don't speculate or claim to know that an editor has or has not read a source, read the article, or read a policy or guideline. Don't focus on users, focus on the sources - make statements similar to these examples: "As noted in the (source, WP guideline, etc) it is the case that X, Y and Z." Your comments, whether on edit summaries or talk pages should address the sources, Wikipedia article content, structure, policies and implementation of policy in accordance with the WMF mission rather than the habits, knowledge, skills, abilities, or lack thereof, of WP editors.
- As the TLDR essay notes, "As a label, [TLDR] is sometimes used as a tactic to thwart the kinds of discussion which are essential in collaborative editing." So is TE. One of my favorite sections from WP: Too long; didn't read (TLDR): --- Maintain civility --- Sometimes a person might feel that a reader's decision to pointedly mention this essay during a discussion is dismissive and rude. Therefore, courteous editors might, as an alternative to citing WP:TLDR, create a section on the longwinded editor's talk page and politely ask them to write more concisely. A common mis-citation of this essay is to ignore the reasoned and actually quite clear arguments and requests for response presented by an (necessarily or unnecessarily) wordy editor with a flippant "TL;DR" in an attempt to discredit and refuse to address their strongly-presented ideas and/or their criticism of one's own position. This is a four-fold fallacy: ad hominem, appeal to ridicule, thought-terminating cliché, and simple failure to actually engage in the debate because one is supposedly too pressed for time to bother, the inverted version of proof by verbosity.
- From Civility enforcement: (a) Inconsistencies in civility enforcement - Throughout the project, breaches of the expected level of decorum are common. These violations of the community's standards of conduct are unevenly, and often ineffectively, enforced. ( See this, and this). (b) Difficulties in defining civility - The civility policy has been the subject of ongoing debate since its creation in 2004, with over 1700 edits to the policy and more than 3400 edits to its talk page (both of these data points retrieved in Feb. 2012). This ongoing debate highlights continuing disagreement on what constitutes incivility, and particularly sanctionable incivility, and makes it difficult for editors and administrators to apply the policy.
- From User: The Devil's Advocate --- My editing philosophy: In my editing I strive to take the approach of a Bohemian Wikipedian. I draw my inspiration from the values espoused in the film Moulin Rouge! of Truth, Beauty, Freedom, and Love. These also reflect the kind of values I try to uphold in life. As it pertains to Wikipedia I apply these values in this way:
- Truth - Too often people take the dictum of verifiability, not truth too far by presuming that if a reliable source can be found to make the claim then it is ok for Wikipedia to say it in the editorial voice. Usually this occurs because of an editor's own bias seeping into his or her editing process. At times because there is an absence of contravening sources editors similarly feel confident in using stronger language than that of their sources. However, I believe this goes against an unspoken rule that Wikipedia should always strive for factual accuracy. I seek to counter the systemic bias that often works its way into contentious topic areas in pursuit of the greater truth. That means using the most neutral wording the sources support and, save for "sky is blue"-type situations, in-text attribution should be the norm. The goal is making the project a place to find the whole story with eyes unclouded by prejudice, contrary to the more controlled sources of information in the world.
- Beauty - When it comes to any article one is likely to find more than a few instances of repetition and less-than-engaging wording. One of my objectives in contributing to Wikipedia is to improve the stylistic appearance of any article I come across. That means, to provide an example, trimming down the instances of paragraphs starting with the same letter, and especially the same word. Another big issue is avoiding the timeline-like style certain articles about ongoing events tend to take on out of a general apathy of editors. By beautifying the project wherever I can my hope is that more readers will be engaged with the repository of knowledge Wikipedia represents.
- Freedom - This project is first and foremost an experiment in information democracy. Submitting the whole of human ingenuity and knowledge to the task of building a source of knowledge for all requires great care and consideration. As predicted by the iron law of oligarchy, Wikipedia has fallen prey to the same abusive tendencies of any governance system. Rule by consensus may appear to be a policy to cherish, but it is all too often misused by editors to impose their own will on the project. Assuming good faith keeps us willfully blind to some extent about what is taking place. Look through any article in a contentious topic area and you are liable to find a consortium of editors from the same ideological persuasion who have become the page's self-appointed gatekeepers. Enterprising users who go against their will often find themselves driven away, whether it is by falling into a revert trap or simply becoming frustrated with endless stone-walling. Unfortunately, Wikipedia looks more favorably upon the gatekeepers as they greatly outnumber their opponent. Always looking for a way to satisfy all parties without compromising my principles and drawing attention to the biases of all sides is the best way I can think of to insure this experiment remains open to as many people as possible.
- Love - Above all things I believe in WikiLove. WikiLove is like oxygen. WikiLove lifts us up where we belong. All you need is WikiLove. For me it means keeping an open mind on all things. Were more editors to leave themselves open it would be easier to defuse most disputes. Remain open to having your edits rewritten. Remain open to changing your mind. Remain open to changing your actions even if you won't change your mind. Too much potential is lost in the ideological rigidity of groupthink and confirmation bias. Pursuit of WikiLove means that the only things we should try to take seriously are the feelings of others. Sometimes it is hard to stay cool and we have all been there at one point or another. We should thus not let an occasional lapse determine someone's fate as none of us are perfect. Keep in mind that we do this not for ourselves, but for all those who may witness this body of work.
- To sum it all up, my goal is to try and uphold the idea of what Wikipedia can be, while dealing with the reality of what Wikipedia is at this moment. More than anything I want this project to be a great service to all truth-seekers in the world. It should be a light of knowledge in dark places when all other lights go out. One could say that I am a true believer when it comes to this idea and, even if it leaves me battered and bruised, I will strive to defend the principles of this project above all else.
- Some reflections on WP:Randy in Boise: It is interesting to learn how some editors enable each other and systematically take the side of members in their group in the disputes with which they inevitably become involved (disputes with editors outside their group). Frequently, they discover behavioral problems with every editor who opposes the POV pushing of a member of their group. Meanwhile they ignore or minimize their own behavioral problems.
- From User: The Devil's Advocate: --- Things to Do --- "... Write essay on "camping" at WP articles; Write essay on "railroading" by groups to potentially link with camping; Write essay on "echo chamber" to discuss groupthink on Wikipedia to link from camping and railroading; Write essay on "doubling down" in contentious disputes ..."
- Jimbo Wales on disruptive editing: "In the old days, I would have just personally blocked the troll on sight, and that would have been the end of that. One of the things that makes wikis work is precisely the ability of the community to tell people to knock off the nonsense or get blocked. If you go back to the disastrous culture of unmoderated Usenet groups, you can see what happens if it is too difficult to block trolls from participation. What happens is that good people reach the end of their good humor and lash out. The social environment degrades to people screaming at each other and it becomes quite hard to tell the good people from the bad. If someone says that they "consider Wikipedia to be an intrinsically evil concept" then the solution is not to get emotional and lash out at them in anger, but to realize that telling them to fuck off is not nearly as satisfying as maintaining a good sense of humor while making them fuck off (with a permanent ban). We have better things to do!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
A classic case of WP: BOOMERANG, from Administrators' Noticeboard:
- Uncivil discussion by User:Sean.hoyland -- User:Sean.hoyland appears to be wikihounding and violating WP:Civility. He has made matters worse by impeding honest efforts at dispute resolution. He appears unable to control his battleground behavior. His comments are in clear violation of civility, namely, by "making snide comments, making personal remarks about editors, and being aggressive." He recently put me in the same category as "advocates of Intelligent design, Holocaust deniers, and others who "deny the existence of evidence." (See WP:NPA: "Comparing editors to Nazis, dictators, or other infamous persons. [See also Godwin's law.]") I have done nothing to deserve such attacks.
- As can be seen, I have voiced concerns politely and made an honest effort to engage in discussion in Talk:Israel#Palestinian state, but he has responded aggressively to dispute resolution of a reasonable disagreement. It is an honest discussion that does not show any signs of WP:NOTADVOCATE, for which he cites as his reason for rejected any form of DR.[redacted]
- He said I and another editor lack "basic behavioral attributes," but never explained what he means, for his reason not to resolve the dispute.[4][redacted]
- In a search for guidance, I looked for editors who are willing to volunteer to help resolve disputes. I found an admin and made a polite request for advice for this situation. User:Sean.hoyland, apparently by wikihounding, made an aggressive, uncivil, and rude comment on the editor's page after my request:
I am not refusing to "cooperate in any form of dispute resolution". I am refusing to cooperate with you. ... I also don't cooperate with advocates of Intelligent design, Holocaust deniers, a variety of editors who deny the existence of evidence, because it is a waste of time.
I have acted professionally and collegially and have done nothing to deserve these abrasive comments. I have sought to resolve our disagreement, but this user is making that difficult if not impossible. He cannot control his battleground behavior, and while I have remained civil he is not making an effort to engage in dispute resolution, leaving many cases at a standstill. I kindly bring this to your attention. --Precision123 (talk) 22:02, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - I took the time to read first 20 edits of this discussion: Talk:Israel#Palestinian state. Precision123 is performing Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing in re-opening the infamous case that West Bank and Gaza Strip would not be Palestinian (occupied) territories but disputed territories per WP:NPOV. I can understand that the way he insists despite the responses that he receives could upset and make many lose their temper. Pluto2012 (talk) 22:28, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
(edit) And I lost my time. Pluto2012 (talk) 22:33, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- Absolutely no civil POV pushing at all. There are no fringe theories that I push or give any weight to. I fully support describing the Palestinian territories as the Palestinian territories. My position is against the POV pushing of "State of Palestine" on the borders. I fully support that the Palestinian territories are the West Bank and Gaza Strip. But the reliable sources do not refer to those territories as the state of Palestine. (Same with most WP articles). Please do not make those accusations. --Precision123 (talk) 22:36, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- I am not sure why Pluto2012 is bringing up an unrelated edit that is a year old, to which I have made no further edits since. Pluto2012's edit was just quickly removed by another editor there just now, so I am not sure what his grievance is. I have made many improvements to articles of political parties (e.g., Hatnuah, Meretz, Likud, Green Movement, Ale Yarok, Yesh Atid, Shas, etc.) virtually all of them uncontroversial and accepted by editors still today. You may see. No accusations of POV pushing before. This is not related, so please stay on topic. --Precision123 (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- @Pluto2012:, you want to see civil POV pushing by Precision123 just look here: Talk:Haaretz.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:24, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Comment This is another case where Precision123 tries to make a case out of nothing against Sean.hoyland. Start being a useful contributor and you will surely get better replies and cooperation. --IRISZOOM (talk) 01:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Please allow the admins to respond and read for themselves. This group of allied editors are trying to discredit me with no explanation. The diffs speak for themselves. A lack of civility and effort to cooperate is apparent. I have always been a useful and professional contributor and have been civil, so please leave your personal attacks to yourself. --Precision123 (talk) 02:37, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Precision123 says This group of allied editors are trying to discredit me with no explanation. WP:WIAPA says Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. What's wrong with this picture?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:46, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- I have used several diffs pointing to specific incidents, unlike the other editors' comments, including yours. Please avoid accusations and let the admins see for themselves. I have acted professionally and have done nothing to deserve rude remarks or aggressive comparisons to Holocaust deniers when I politely request dispute resolution. --Precision123 (talk) 02:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Precision123 says This group of allied editors are trying to discredit me with no explanation. WP:WIAPA says Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. What's wrong with this picture?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:46, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Please allow the admins to respond and read for themselves. This group of allied editors are trying to discredit me with no explanation. The diffs speak for themselves. A lack of civility and effort to cooperate is apparent. I have always been a useful and professional contributor and have been civil, so please leave your personal attacks to yourself. --Precision123 (talk) 02:37, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Precision123 needs to be more concise—the opening paragraph is filled with irrelevant links (people here know what "intelligent design" is, and come to think of it, they know what CIVIL is as well). I looked at the first link that appeared to be about the issue, and found a perfectly civil and helpful comment from Sean Hoyland, currently visible here. The comment may be regarded as a little blunt, but all editors who have met WP:CPUSH contributors know that mediation is a waste of time in certain cases. My recommendation would be for Precision123 to examine the message in Sean's comment and evaluate whether any of it may have merit. Wikipedia is not available for advocacy. Johnuniq (talk) 03:22, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response. I was trying to be as inclusive as I could, but I will take your advice. My concern is over an editor who essentially acts a stumbling block to dispute resolution as could be seen there. I have not done anything to be put in categories with people like Holocaust denier, intelligent design advocates, etc., with whom mediation might actually be worthless. Rather, I want to pursue dispute resolution, and this editor just responds abrasively and rudely to me. --Precision123 (talk) 03:32, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Precision123, can you please stop editing your remarks after people have responded to them? It's extremely confusing for everyone who's trying to follow the conversation, if anyone still is.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 03:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- I am sorry if it was confusing for you. I put a note that says [redact] because I took the advice to make it more concise. I do not want my statement to be misconstrued. Never would I do anything like POV push (civil or otherwise), and there is no evidence that I have. Dispute resolution is between editors who do not agree, not between those who do. All I ask for is an honest discussion, and an editor should respond in a manner that is civil. Responding so aggressively to a polite request for DR is disruptive and unfair. --Precision123 (talk) 03:52, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Precision123, can you please stop editing your remarks after people have responded to them? It's extremely confusing for everyone who's trying to follow the conversation, if anyone still is.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 03:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response. I was trying to be as inclusive as I could, but I will take your advice. My concern is over an editor who essentially acts a stumbling block to dispute resolution as could be seen there. I have not done anything to be put in categories with people like Holocaust denier, intelligent design advocates, etc., with whom mediation might actually be worthless. Rather, I want to pursue dispute resolution, and this editor just responds abrasively and rudely to me. --Precision123 (talk) 03:32, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Not trying it get involved in admin matters or even know if I'm allowed to post here. If I'm not my apologies. Sean Hoyland isn't patting anyone on the butt and tucking them in good night but he's hardly breached civility. I'm involved with this dispute or or least the one involving regarding Israel. Sean maybe a stumbling block for dispute resolution. But all avenues of dispute resolution used have been optional. I hate to assume bad faith but that is all can assume here. I have to ask you Precision if this is an effort to get Sean out of the way temporarily so that you can have a better chance at forcing a consensus. Again my apologies administrators if I shouldn't have posted here. As party involved in the dispute that lead to this I thought would be appropriate. Echo me if I'm required here for anything.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 04:28, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Absolutely not at all, Serialjoepsycho. I would love to cooperate with him or any other editor in dispute resolution. I have never requested that he be blocked. As you can see I am understandably offended by such abrasive comments; I did nothing to deserve them and it is disrupting an honest effort at dispute resolution. But I did not want him to be blocked or banned. We have a reasonable disagreement that is best guided by an admin or mediator. I think that would be great for all of us if he were to engage, and did not impede, dispute resolution. I am sorry if that was not clear before. --Precision123 (talk) 04:37, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the talk page, Precision123's behavior here and elsewhere, I have imposed an ARBPIA Discretionary Sanctions 1-week article ban on Precision123 editing Israel and its talk page. He is acting politely and within administrative channels, but in a persistently disruptive manner in which he is acting as if the others around him cannot have a valid differing viewpoint. This is not collegial; we do not require everyone sing Kumbaya and agree on the real world positions, but we do require that you respect that others can have differing opinions and that those are valid and need to be respected. Merely holding a differing opinion is not grounds for administrative challenges or disruptive behavior, even if those are done very politely. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Not previously familiar with WP:ARBPIA, or if I were in the past, I've forgotten it. Are you doing this under the "Standard discretionary sanctions" section, the remedy 6)? Not challenging, just seeking to be clear, especially since Arbcom's repealed some findings and provisions as well as enacting others that weren't originally included. Nyttend (talk) 04:59, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, standard discretionary sanctions are now enabled on all PIA articles. They enable any uninvolved administrator to warn any editor who they believe is editing in a disruptive manner in the field, which was done twice earlier this year for Precision123. Once warned, any uninvolved administrator can article or topic ban, etc. etc. Arbitration enforcement DS admin actions are not subject to one-admin overturn, but can be appealed or reviewed and overturned subject to a reasonable consensus on any appropriate noticeboard (which I think is AN, ANI, or AE). Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:10, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Not previously familiar with WP:ARBPIA, or if I were in the past, I've forgotten it. Are you doing this under the "Standard discretionary sanctions" section, the remedy 6)? Not challenging, just seeking to be clear, especially since Arbcom's repealed some findings and provisions as well as enacting others that weren't originally included. Nyttend (talk) 04:59, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Boomerang. I think from looking at those differences that Sean hoyland is the cool-headed person, besides being overall a constructive editor. Precision123 on the other hand appears to be a POV pusher and his overal behavior in my opinion warrants a topic ban of some sort. Pass a Method talk 16:17, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Request for forgiveness
- More than a year has passed since I was blocked for stupidly threatening User:Jayron32. I'm from Argentina and after an edit-war, I said the following: "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian..." or so I said. I well-deserved to be blocked because I was beyond immature and stupid. Then, I created another account to start anew as a respected user. Well, the sock-puppetry accusations began and I couldn't ever again work on Wikipedia. I deny sock-puppetry since I don't, I can't use blocked accounts and I'm not interested in having more than one account. So, I'm now asking to be forgiven and allowed to create another account and start anew. Thank you indeed. --190.178.156.205 (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- Don't even remember it, but if you're here to do good work, go do that. --Jayron32 23:04, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- From what I can see, I would support the editor coming back. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- Don't even remember it, but if you're here to do good work, go do that. --Jayron32 23:04, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you Jayron for giving me a second and last opportunity!, I've been working in the shadows and doing well with User:Japanesehelper but I'm afraid of going public (i.e. nominating candidates for Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates) and getting blocked for the alleged "sock-puppetry" that never occurred since I never used two accounts at the same time. Who can guarantee me that "Japanesehelper", my only account, will not be blocked? Thank you.--190.178.183.38 (talk) 23:11, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- No one can guarantee anything, but the person you attacked has given his blessing for you to be back, one other person thinks that is the best unbureaucratic way to deal with the problem (me), and assuming you just edit and stay out of trouble and not war or get into fights, I don't see a problem. Assuming others don't argue against this solution, you could just point to this discussion. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- Perfect. You can see my record with "Japanesehelper", it's cleaner than a brand new t-shirt. I was immature when that happened. Promise it won't happen ever again. --Japanesehelper (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- No one can guarantee anything, but the person you attacked has given his blessing for you to be back, one other person thinks that is the best unbureaucratic way to deal with the problem (me), and assuming you just edit and stay out of trouble and not war or get into fights, I don't see a problem. Assuming others don't argue against this solution, you could just point to this discussion. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- Doesnt sockpuppetry include using new accounts to evade blocks? Howunusual (talk) 00:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes and no. We're not here to mete out perpetual punishment, we're here to build an encyclopedia. This isn't a game. If Japanesehelper wished to be helpful, I am not going to get in their way. --Jayron32 00:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- It is a legitimate question, but again I agree with Jayron. When someone appears to be very sincere, apologetic and sets a clear future path for their behavior, and the person who was on the receiving end last time (Jayron) gives their blessing, I think we owe it to ourselves and them to take a chance. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes and no. We're not here to mete out perpetual punishment, we're here to build an encyclopedia. This isn't a game. If Japanesehelper wished to be helpful, I am not going to get in their way. --Jayron32 00:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Let's not prevent good work from being done. Probably a bad use of clean start, but WP:IAR - a productive editor need not be a perfect editor, both in content or character. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:42, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Probably worth verifying whether this is an IP sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/AndresHerutJaim/Archive, a racist ultranationalist extremist and sociopathic liar who in the spare time off wiki writes things like "fucking mohammedan apes and baby-killers", "Fuck you !! stupid Islamofascist terrorist ape dressed in rags. I hope you and all your family of monkeys shall receive what you deserve when Israel kick your coward ass. Asshole! ISRAEL WIN", "Don’t worry bitch, nobody wants your fucking Arab Keffiyeh. Nobody wants to look like an ugly terrorist monkey, except for Purim", "¡¡¡God bless Nakba!!! (Jewish victory over the war of extermination that the Arabs brought upon them 65 years ago). Never in history was a "catastrophe" so well deserved! God bless Israel. Keep strong, united, prepared and brave.", ""palestine" does not exist, never did and never will", "Yes, you are in this struggle and you will be defeated like all the enemies of my nation. I'm a Jew from Argentina who soon will make Aliya and join the IDF in order to kick, destroy and fight against bullshit scum like you. Fuck off you fucking marxist. Leave Israel with all your fucking Arab ape friends. We don't want people like you in Medinat Israel. AM ISRAEL CHAI VE KAIAM ISRAEL WIN". Sean.hoyland - talk 04:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- I should add that Japanesehelper does not look like AndresHerutJaim, but AndresHerutJaim's persistent socking via both accounts and Argentina based IPs has been such a major problem over the past few years in the WP:ARBPIA topic area and its suburbs that experienced editors will assume that any Buenos Aires based IP active in the ARBPIA topic area that appears to be advocating for Israel or against Palestine or Iran is a sock. Is there a diff for the comment "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian..." ? Sean.hoyland - talk 05:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- I have to agree some idea of who this editor actually is would be helpful, at least if we are going to give any indication they may be allowed to stick around.
- I don't know much about the editor Sean.hoyland mentions above, but Special:Contributions/Japanesehelper is looking a lot like Special:Contributions/Timothyhere who abused many sockpuppets Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Timothyhere + Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Timothyhere + many which were either blocked per WP:DENY or which unblocked but had their contributions deleted). While obviously it was never confirmed by a CU, they did sometimes edit under an Argentinian IP. Particularly in their later stages, they seemed to mostly troll the Reference Desk, Help Desk and Teahouse. But they did hang around ITN at various stages. Beyond simple trolling, they did seem to have a particular interest in Nazi Germany and serial killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer similar to Japanesehelper.
- They also claimed to be Japanese at least once Special:Contributions/Kotjap with a corresponding interest in Japanese related topics although I think they showed the same interest even with other identities. Kotjaps claims to be Japanese weren't particularly believable. IIRC they claimed to be living in Japan with some elaborate back story like being a 55 year old former hikikomori who's father beat them [5] yet never showed any actual evidence of understanding Japanese. (I can't recall if they ever explicitly said they spoke Japanese but I think they did repeatedly saying they were not a native English speaker, which may be true regardless, which combined with their claims about their identity lead to an obvious conclusion. And even IIRC when Japanese editors suggested they ask their question in Japanese they never said they didn't actually speak Japanese.) Or really any evidence of knowing that much about Japan you would expect from someone who lived there. (And of course, it's very likely they were editing from an Argentinian IP.)
- As stated above, it seemed clear they were trolling. Over time, it became fairly obvious they already knew the answer to many of their 'questions' or otherwise didn't care. Furthermore, beyond the Japanese identity, they pretended to be from all over the world usually mentioning stuff in 'my country' or similar. In particular, in many of their later identities, they claimed to be from tiny island/s nations, or at least small poor places you wouldn't generally expect many wikipedians from.
- I don't know if they ever said the stuff about "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian" to Jayron32, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't the reason why the Timothyhere round of socks was blocked. It could be that the AndresHerutJaim and Timothyhere group are the same editor and no one noticed before. I would also note that if it's either editor, their indication their disruption stopped over a year ago isn't particularly believable. (I believe there were more recent Timothyhere socks than the late June ones but I'm lazy to look for them.)
- I'm not suggesting an immediate block since I'm not seeing an obvious signs of disruption under the new account. And if it is Timothyhere they seem to have given up on pretending to be from places they clearly aren't. But if it's either or both editor/s, lying about their history and why they were blocked is not a good sign. And they should expect to be on a short leash not because of anything to do with forgiveness but because we have good reason to think they can't be trusted to continue to edit.
- Edit: The most recent probably trolling from Timothyhere I can find is Special:Contributions/190.178.141.180. It's nothing particularly wrong but given the history it was hard to believe their claim they were "working for a psychology project on the case regarding Kato". Also looking a bit more, I think Timothyhere had an interest in terrorism and in particular Al Qaeda under their many identities, in particular in relation to Canada. But I don't recall much interest in the Israel-Palestinian issue or Iran.
- Nil Einne (talk) 06:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- This is not the correct process for requesting an unblock. The editor says their account was blocked 1 year ago and they apparently set up a sock account to continue editing shortly afterwards. They have not even told us what the original account was, or how they were blocked. Furthermore, if they continue editing, they are not normally allowed to make a clean start but must keep the old account after it has been unblocked. My suggestion is to close this discussion thread, block the IP and Japanesehelper, and ask them to make the request on their talk page or, if that is blocked, through email. At that time, a CU can be conducted. TFD (talk) 07:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- In a nutshell, it is easier to watch someone when they are in the open, and the liklihood of them becoming productive is higher as well. My opinion hasn't changed. I won't block and would oppose anyone else at this juncture. Wait and see, monitor, hope for the best. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- This is not the correct process for requesting an unblock. The editor says their account was blocked 1 year ago and they apparently set up a sock account to continue editing shortly afterwards. They have not even told us what the original account was, or how they were blocked. Furthermore, if they continue editing, they are not normally allowed to make a clean start but must keep the old account after it has been unblocked. My suggestion is to close this discussion thread, block the IP and Japanesehelper, and ask them to make the request on their talk page or, if that is blocked, through email. At that time, a CU can be conducted. TFD (talk) 07:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- When you deal with civil POV pushers, you will question your own sanity and at times start thinking that you might in fact be the problem. If this happens, IME you should take a step back and think about your true reasons for editing. This should give you perspective. If you are truly here to build an encyclopedia, then you are not inherently the problem. You may have gone about it improperly and made mistakes, but that's okay, it happens, the Wikipedia community tends to forgive people who make innocent mistakes. However, the people who are not here to build an encyclopedia pose the real problem to wikipedia's "system". Often, they do everything right and rarely make mistakes (if they did things wrong, they would have been "weeded out" already).
- In my experience, the best way to deal with civil POV pushing is to simply get more experience editing. The problem with civil POV pushers is they happen to be very knowledgeable about the way Wikipedia works and they know how to game the system and WP:WIKILAWYER without getting caught; if they weren't that good at it, they would have been dealt with accordingly by now. They also know the limits, and won't game the system or wikilawyer an unreasonable amount that will get them into trouble. Civil POV pushers have an agenda, and they will manipulate the rules to get what they want. This is what will drive you crazy. They will tell you you are violating all these rules, and they might actually make some seemingly very good arguments. You will likely begin to question your sanity. However, they are wikilawyering, using the "letter of the law" (Wikipedia policies) too strictly while ignoring the "spirit of the law". They are also probably rhetorically skilled, and will find ways to shift the conversation into a topic that better suits their agenda (ie you might find that you are talking about trivial interpretations of policies or other vague theoretical nonsense instead of the actual content). Do not try to rationally reason with them, as it will only lead you off track and drive you further from a consensus.
- Once you start to better understand the policies and all the little ins and outs, you can start picking up on the rules that they are twisting and distorting and bending and blurring. Now, when you recognize their tactics, you can call them out on it. This should make a big difference to your editing experience. You will begin to know for certain that you are not at fault and this should ease your mind. You should also be more equipped to hold your ground in the content dispute. Please know that they will not give you any leeway and they will quickly come to understand your strengths and weaknesses. So if you're really lazy about going and verifying material in sources, they will not make any efforts to verify it for you. For example, they might cite "pages 110-170".
- I know you asked for a "town sheriff", but unfortunately I don't know the best place to find one. Very rarely will you find a sheriff that cares enough to take the time to hear your case and begin to understand what the POV pusher(s) are doing. At first glance, most sheriffs will think the pusher(s) are doing nothing wrong. However, if someone really takes the time to understand your situation, they will be able to help (assuming they thoroughly know the rules). No matter what you do, if you hold on long enough, someone will stumble by. Things that seem like curses might actually turn out to be blessings. For example, the POV pusher(s) might report you for edit warring or something like that. However, this will get an admin involved. Hopefully, that admin will catch on and if he or she does, he or she may help you.
- If someone does come around and helps you out, you will probably find that they are making all of the same arguments you've been making the whole time, but are citing policies while doing so. This should truly put your mind to rest. Personally, I think the reason why Wikipedia is an unreliable source boils down to civil POV pushing. In reality, any person can learn the ins and outs of Wikipedia and will have a relatively easy time pushing any opinion they want. They have no fear for their reputation or their license or their job because editing Wikipedia can be totally anonymous. Furthermore, not only can they push their POV onto articles, but sometimes they try to do the same to policy pages, in an effort to broaden their POV's influence from a single article to every article.
- Charles35 (talk), 2013 (UTC)
- (Ijon Tichy Note: However, injecting POV into well-established WP policies is generally much more difficult than inserting POV into WP articles. Experienced editors are generally pretty good at detecting POV pushing in policies as well as in [most] articles.)
From Jimbo Wales' talk page:
- Editing uncontroversially can be tricky, and most people either run into serious problems sooner or later, or they just quit in despair. Often times, perhaps most of the time, our wiki-processes work very well in resolving problems, but it is not at all uncommon for people to be treated unfairly, even terribly, by administrators, and we should not pretend that this system we've created is anywhere near perfect. Everyking (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- The system is not perfect. Do some administrators have an attitude and misuse their tools? Yes. Is there always a route to overcome and resolve conflict? No, not always. Is that frustrating? Yep. But some editors do try. ... An abusive admin is not a content dispute. Claiming you were unjustly blocked is not a content dispute. Complaining about an admin on AN is likely to be seen somewhat skeptically by most unless a clear cut case and seems to be a dead end to many and don't bother. --Mark Miller (talk) 02:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- It's not exceptional. Been editing for 6+ years, with 25K+ edits to articles (a lot of them brought up at WP:ANI and WP:BLP so some degree of controversy is implied), disagreed with established users and admins, and have never been blocked on purpose. The "trick" is to stay calm and civil, be aware of WP:BRD, and make use of Wikipedia's dispute resolution mechanisms (talk pages, noticeboards, WP:ANI, etc.). If no one seems inclined to help you out, perhaps the issue isn't as big as you think it is. --NeilN (talk) 05:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- I hope you were never blocked on accident. Many of those routes you mention are strictly content venues, where ANI is for administrative intervention...where an admin has to step in, and BLP of course is to get more eyes and opinions on a situation or article of concern that are not within BLP policy and guidelines (something very important) but not a conflict venue (defining a conflict as being between editors, not directly about content, although indirectly about content). It isn't as much a trick to stay calm, but a trick to know exactly where to take your issue, if you're very sure it is an issue. The best one can do now is find a trusted admin who you can seek some assistance in an informal or formal manner. If your issue is another admin, then you have the AN board where you can formally complain about a specific administrator. But that can make new comers and even some old timers think twice since you are reporting an admin...to an admin. I've worked a good deal through our DR mechanisms, there is no "Conflict" resolution, just "Dispute" resolution. And we define a dispute on Wikipedia as being "content" issues. If two people are simply unable to get along and have active conflicts, we don't tend to deal well with the situation and the personal conflict seems to blow up and end up at arbcom. Everything shouldn't be a "High court" decision and yes...I do see arb com as such, whether that be true or not, but they are our equivalent of a high court of peers. Not a knock against them, just that maybe all such conflicts need not end up on their plate.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- As for me, 26,000 edits, 36% to article space, and I've never been blocked, and not even come close. I've never had an administrator say a mean word to me. My secret? I do my best to follow policies and guidelines, I don't edit war, I try hard to be polite and helpful, I compromise, and I try to resolve disputes instead of escalating them. When things get nasty, I take a break. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:54, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- I hope you were never blocked on accident. Many of those routes you mention are strictly content venues, where ANI is for administrative intervention...where an admin has to step in, and BLP of course is to get more eyes and opinions on a situation or article of concern that are not within BLP policy and guidelines (something very important) but not a conflict venue (defining a conflict as being between editors, not directly about content, although indirectly about content). It isn't as much a trick to stay calm, but a trick to know exactly where to take your issue, if you're very sure it is an issue. The best one can do now is find a trusted admin who you can seek some assistance in an informal or formal manner. If your issue is another admin, then you have the AN board where you can formally complain about a specific administrator. But that can make new comers and even some old timers think twice since you are reporting an admin...to an admin. I've worked a good deal through our DR mechanisms, there is no "Conflict" resolution, just "Dispute" resolution. And we define a dispute on Wikipedia as being "content" issues. If two people are simply unable to get along and have active conflicts, we don't tend to deal well with the situation and the personal conflict seems to blow up and end up at arbcom. Everything shouldn't be a "High court" decision and yes...I do see arb com as such, whether that be true or not, but they are our equivalent of a high court of peers. Not a knock against them, just that maybe all such conflicts need not end up on their plate.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- It's not exceptional. Been editing for 6+ years, with 25K+ edits to articles (a lot of them brought up at WP:ANI and WP:BLP so some degree of controversy is implied), disagreed with established users and admins, and have never been blocked on purpose. The "trick" is to stay calm and civil, be aware of WP:BRD, and make use of Wikipedia's dispute resolution mechanisms (talk pages, noticeboards, WP:ANI, etc.). If no one seems inclined to help you out, perhaps the issue isn't as big as you think it is. --NeilN (talk) 05:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- The system is not perfect. Do some administrators have an attitude and misuse their tools? Yes. Is there always a route to overcome and resolve conflict? No, not always. Is that frustrating? Yep. But some editors do try. ... An abusive admin is not a content dispute. Claiming you were unjustly blocked is not a content dispute. Complaining about an admin on AN is likely to be seen somewhat skeptically by most unless a clear cut case and seems to be a dead end to many and don't bother. --Mark Miller (talk) 02:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day." --Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbes. ----Guy Macon (talk) 08:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia attracts people of varying type and situation. Some with different ways of interacting in this medium of text only. Everyone acting perfectly after hours of research, writing, copy editing, etc. is not always going to happen. It can tire a person out quickly when someone decides to challenge something you feel has legitimate value, sourced reliably etc.. We can expect the best, but we have to admit imperfection exists, help guide it and allow some venting. We can only learn and grow when given the room to make mistakes. Mistakes can always be overcome. Mistakes can always be corrected. In the time I have been on Wikipedia I have learned how to avoid content disputes in a number of ways to avoid content issues needing intervention or mediation. It took a number of...less than cordial exchanges that, eventually, everyone was able to apologize for their own behavior...even after what I thought would simply be the end of all enjoyment on Wikipedia for me. But then I realized that if I was not going to have fun, I might as well admit I was being an idiot for my part and leave it to the others to decide how next to reply. Given the opportunity, most people choose peace and forgiveness...even if the situation is never forgotten. It isn't a zen thing. People just have to naturally find their routes and some personalities may clash and need a lot of room to understand where the other is coming from and how best to work with whatever new tilt that editor may be adding. Maybe that just takes imagination to be able to see how something might work or maybe just patience, but I have blocks. I am not ashamed of them. They're there for the reasons they are there whether they were or were not exactly as black and white as "Doing something wrong". I don't hold much weight to a block log. not really. I have worked well with editors who have never been blocked, and why not be proud of never being blocked? However...I have worked with editors very well who have block logs the length of a feature article. If you are really attempting an honest contribution to content, most good editors can see that and find a way to compromise if they don't agree with it.--Mark Miller (talk) 13:29, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I've been blocked by accident (the admin got me instead of the spammer I was dealing with). But I saw the situation for what it was and had a laugh about it. Much better than trying to stir up drama. And WP:BLPN can occasionally turn into quite the conflict venue, with editors disagreeing on how the policy applies to certain situations and each side wondering about the "competence" of the other. Most boards act the same way, with different areas of focus. --NeilN talk to me 14:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I have volunteered on a lot of the boards including BLP. Yes, I cannot deny that they can all have their fair share of drama. DR/N, RS/N can be as overwrought as AN/I and some of the worse RFAs. But I would not label them as conflict venues. I very much see conflict as between people and disputes being about content. I separate these as I might in conflict/dispute resolution at a job. A conflict is between people, a dispute is about how to proceed on a project.--Mark Miller (talk) 14:41, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
From Administrators' Noticeboard:
- A word from the dispute resolution community about the voluntary nature of dispute resolution: I'm a very frequent volunteer at all levels of content dispute resolution. Participation in dispute resolution is always voluntary and no one may be compelled to participate. To say that backwards, failing to participate in DR is never a matter which should cause an editor to be blocked, banned, or otherwise sanctioned. That does not mean, however, that such a failure cannot be taken into consideration by an administrator or by the community in deciding whether or not an editor is editing in a disruptive manner or in a manner which is not in the best interests of the encyclopedia. Failing to take part in DR is not alone disruptive, just as failing or refusing to discuss one's edits is not alone disruptive, but it can be part of a disruptive pattern. On the other hand the reasons for failing to take part in DR can also be taken into consideration: Frustration with another editor's disruptive editing or other misbehavior can certainly justify a desire to simply not engage with it further. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, just trying to provide a conceptual framework. Regards, User:TransporterMan, 15:34, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
From Administrators' Noticeboard:
- (during discussion of a proposal to block user X) Oppose (enthusiastically). He's already been blocked, didn't seem to help. Maybe we should try something else. NE Ent, April 2014 (UTC)
- NE ENT, I trust you since you are a reasonable man and not a former enemy drawn to this ANI looking for blood. What do you like to see different from me. Please be specific. I guarantee you'll get it. X (talk), April 2014 (UTC)
- The first thing should probably be to stop expecting Wikipedia to be rational, fair, coherent, consistent, or anything like that. Secondly, if you find contributing to Wikipedia isn't enjoyable, I'd log off until such time (if ever) you find that it might be. Beyond that, it would depend on what specific goals you have moving forward. NE Ent, April 2014 (UTC)
- NE ENT, I trust you since you are a reasonable man and not a former enemy drawn to this ANI looking for blood. What do you like to see different from me. Please be specific. I guarantee you'll get it. X (talk), April 2014 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Village pump:
- Gaming the edit counter with edit wars and user's own user pages:
- It seems engaging in edit wars though likely to get a user blocked can give users an extra hundred posts every now and again or more over time. I propose these edits me struck from the edit count to prevent inflating the status of wikipedia users who frequently edit war; I'm also not sure if your own user page should count; otherwise someone can just ramble on their page 6000 times in a weekend and become part of the top 10,000 contributors. Technically that would be in accordance with the rules. Cassandra Truth (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Why bother? Nobody with any sense thinks that raw edit count data indicates much anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Per Andy, who gives a shit? Edit counts are a meaningless thing, and no one who makes any decision that matters at Wikipedia ever looks at them. Like pretty signatures and well designed user pages, edit counters are a mild amusement, but ultimately serve no purpose for building the encyclopedia. --User:Jayron32 19:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
- Edit counts do matter for when you're applying for more user rights (Article Reviewer needs at least 500 mainspace edits, for example), but generally the sysop doing the approving checks through edits looking for edit wars and such. User:Supernerd11 14:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Ijon Tichy note: Please see Wikipedia:Edit count and Wikipedia: Editcountitis.
- Edit counts do matter for when you're applying for more user rights (Article Reviewer needs at least 500 mainspace edits, for example), but generally the sysop doing the approving checks through edits looking for edit wars and such. User:Supernerd11 14:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Per Andy, who gives a shit? Edit counts are a meaningless thing, and no one who makes any decision that matters at Wikipedia ever looks at them. Like pretty signatures and well designed user pages, edit counters are a mild amusement, but ultimately serve no purpose for building the encyclopedia. --User:Jayron32 19:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
- Why bother? Nobody with any sense thinks that raw edit count data indicates much anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- It seems engaging in edit wars though likely to get a user blocked can give users an extra hundred posts every now and again or more over time. I propose these edits me struck from the edit count to prevent inflating the status of wikipedia users who frequently edit war; I'm also not sure if your own user page should count; otherwise someone can just ramble on their page 6000 times in a weekend and become part of the top 10,000 contributors. Technically that would be in accordance with the rules. Cassandra Truth (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
From Administrators' Noticeboard - Final remark by admin, closing the discussion thread below:
- This is not an admin issue. The anon is directed to actually do something about the article if they find the material so objectionable, as long as it is appropriately sourced. Blackmane (talk) 03:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- Shame on you. --- I can see on the list of goverment of all the world that you separate cyprus in 2 goverments..CYPRUS and northen cyprus..You have to learn that northen cyprus is not a regognized state and the only country in the earth that regognize it as a state is turky and guess why..Turks made an invasion in Cyprus and claim north cyprus with violent and they made a war ..They killed many people and childrens they made people of cyprus move out of their houses and you put northern cyprus on list as a state??? SHAME ON YOU I THOUGHT WIKIPEDIA WAS A GOOD SITE BUT ITS NOT...You can wrote the story of cyprus and how turks invade in cyprus and claim our half coutry .....I will wait for correct your the misinformations or i will report wikipedia and i will let many people learn about that who thinks wikipedia is a good site — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.220.197 (talk) 12:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, shame on us - we didn't write Wikipedia, people like YOU did. If there's an error on the article, go to its talkpage, suggest improvements, and provide links to sources that support your changes. That's how Wikipedia works, and that's why we ARE a "good site." User:EatsShootsAndLeaves, 12:16, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- The Northern Cyprus article makes it clear (at the very beginning of the article) that it is a "self-declared state", and further says, "Recognised only by Turkey, Northern Cyprus is considered by the international community as Turkish-occupied territory of the Republic of Cyprus." Did you even read the article? We even have an article called Human rights in Northern Cyprus which documents problems that have occurred in that area. Rather than "reporting Wikipedia" (to whom?!) perhaps you should take the time to actually read what you're complaining about. -- User:Atama, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Ijon Tichy note: there is no 'us vs. them' on Wikipedia. According to WP policy, all WP users are equal members of the community, unless and until a user is permanently banned/ blocked from editing the encyclopedia. Even users who are indefinitely banned or blocked are still considered members of the community.
- The Northern Cyprus article makes it clear (at the very beginning of the article) that it is a "self-declared state", and further says, "Recognised only by Turkey, Northern Cyprus is considered by the international community as Turkish-occupied territory of the Republic of Cyprus." Did you even read the article? We even have an article called Human rights in Northern Cyprus which documents problems that have occurred in that area. Rather than "reporting Wikipedia" (to whom?!) perhaps you should take the time to actually read what you're complaining about. -- User:Atama, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, shame on us - we didn't write Wikipedia, people like YOU did. If there's an error on the article, go to its talkpage, suggest improvements, and provide links to sources that support your changes. That's how Wikipedia works, and that's why we ARE a "good site." User:EatsShootsAndLeaves, 12:16, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Shame on you. --- I can see on the list of goverment of all the world that you separate cyprus in 2 goverments..CYPRUS and northen cyprus..You have to learn that northen cyprus is not a regognized state and the only country in the earth that regognize it as a state is turky and guess why..Turks made an invasion in Cyprus and claim north cyprus with violent and they made a war ..They killed many people and childrens they made people of cyprus move out of their houses and you put northern cyprus on list as a state??? SHAME ON YOU I THOUGHT WIKIPEDIA WAS A GOOD SITE BUT ITS NOT...You can wrote the story of cyprus and how turks invade in cyprus and claim our half coutry .....I will wait for correct your the misinformations or i will report wikipedia and i will let many people learn about that who thinks wikipedia is a good site — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.220.197 (talk) 12:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
From the user page of User:Verdana Bold
- Why I'm not here -- I'm not here to edit content of any article even remotely controversial. I've gazed in horror at what happens to people who attract the attention of the goon squads that own articles. Jimbo ought to be ashamed of himself for not putting a stop to it, but he's too busy making five grand per speech at colleges like mine and fu cking groupies.
- Or maybe I'm just jealous because three girls were in front of me at his motel door and he said he didn't need a fourth. I dunno.
Sub-Section
Question to user: Nishidani: Your standings on Palestine - Why do you engage yourself in such a controversial topic? I never understood why a man from Japan would care so much about the Palestinians. Khazar (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
There is no such thing as "Palestine." Palestine is a racist colonialist fantasy envisioned by Arabian imperialist powers. Falsely comparing Israelis to Nazis as Nishidani just did is a vile tactic used by anti-Semites to defame Jews and deny the Holocaust. As any intelligent person not brainwashed by the Muslims would know, it is the "Palestinians" who are the Nazis. They are illegal colonist-settlers from Arabia intent on stealing the Jewish homeland to further expand their colonial Arab empire consisting of 21 different countries already. Communists like Nishidani hate Israel obviously because communism is an anti-Semitic totalitarian ideology that is basically the same as Nazism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.91.199.221 (talk) 09:20, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I get headaches and am as slow as a wet week, in dragging up diffs, and even have a geezer's trouble in following these arguments all over several pages, so I can't really make an adequate case. So I'll have to make my contribution in the next few days, according to the fashion I normally work after, when I did work, in the real world. Reflecting from principles, through to the problem, the evidence and conclusions. Apologies to anyone reading this. It's written to help myself get some order into this chat, not to guide others.
(ii)Note on language, naming as an appropriative act of possession and dominion.
In Thomas Pynchon's novel Mason & Dixon, the narrator Cherrycoke recounts, against the huge backdrop of seismic shifts in the political and scientific world of that time, the story of the eponymous figures who have undertaken to draw a scientific map of the wilderness and terrain between Pennsylvania and Maryland:
Late in the novel, the Chinaman of the piece remarks:
The dispute here in wiki, like the historical reality it refers to, has its ‘Bad History’. In the novel, the apparently empirical task of defining boundaries is found unwittingly implicated in the later travails of American history, with its exceptionalism, erasure of native peoples, of possible alternative worlds, of Frostian paths never taken. American innocence and pragmatic realism, in the innocuous work of two surveyors, is swept up in the torment of power: cartographic principles embody an Enlightenment’s reach into the unknown, while, applied, to the ends of order and control, they inadvertently engender violent confusion and disarray. What is the ‘right line’ to take on nomenclature, when history’s line demarcating Israel and the West Bank was drawn by war, then the West Bank was occupied in the aftermath of war, and the world of Israeli settlers begins to redraw the map? One thing that happens is that the complexities have drawn editors into a minor war, as Pynchonesque as it is Pythonesque. There is one difference: most the cartographers say one thing, and Israel, the controlling power, asserts a different terminology. So what’s in a name? Before the world was tribalized and invested by the collateral damage or fall-out from the Tower of Babel, God assigned to the mythical forefather of all, ‘man’ or Adam, the faculty to name the world, though God himself had exercised this right in naming the light (or) day (yom) and the darkness (hôshek) night(layĕlāh) (Gen.1.5) There was only one name for each thing, and in later European thought the primordial language employed in this taxonomy was to be called ‘the Adamic vernacular’. The thesis was that the pristine jargon employed by Adam, being pre-Babelic, represented the true name for every object: every thing had a proper name intrinsic to its nature. The Greeks, as we see in Plato’s Cratylus, were much prepossessed by the philosophical crux of the correctness of names (ὀρθότης τῶν ὀνομάτων): did names have an intrinsic relation to, or represent, things, or was the link arbitrary. The Confucian school’s doctrine of the Rectification of names (zhèngmíng: 正名). In the Bible itself the Hebrew text is full of the magic of words, of the power of words themselves to alter reality, a belief testified to in Isaiah:
Modernity, especially after Ferdinand Saussure (1916), has opted, correctly, for the latter position, and disposed of the magical force of naming. But nationalism, another product of modernity, reintroduced it, via the backdoor, in a new sense. Naming was an act of assertive territorial control, of defining ethnic rights over land, especially as Anthony Smith argues, ethnie are defined also by attachment to a specific geophysical reality, the ‘homeland’ that defines in good part their identity ). Since national identities are a political construct, the inculcation of a uniform language, and the use of its lexicon to define or redefine the landscape, are crucial instruments in forging a national sense of common tradition. Nationalism demanded toponymic unison, and linguistic conformity. John Gaddis, glossing James Scott’s recent book on North Dakota roads and maps, remarks on maps that they reflect
The idea of a nation as a territorial unit speaking one language over that territory is a parlously modern ideology, one engineered by nation-builders into a plausible if specious semblance of commonsense. As Massimo d’Azeglio is said to have remarked at the dawn of the Italian Risorgimento, ‘we have made Italy: our task now is to make Italians’, 95% of whom could neither read, write and nor often even speak ‘Italian’. Imperialism, venturing into terra incognita to appropriate foreign land and incorporate it into an empire, went side by side with nationalism, which was a form of internal colonization over, and homogenization of, the disparate cultures that made up an historically defined territory. For the natives, their indigenous naming is ‘essentially a process of asserting ownership and control of place and landscape’ Daphne Kutzner, in her analysis of the role of Empire in classic children’s fiction, looks at the question from the perspective of the intrusive Empire and its refraction of imperial renaming as reflected in popular books, notes that
Terra incognita is the foreigner’s name for an ostensibly empty landscape which, had they taken the trouble to learn the local languages, would have revealed itself to be replete from every rocky nook to crannied gulley with ancient toponyms. The tendency was one of erasure, and, as with introduced fauna and flora, the landscape was consistently remade as it was renamed to familiarize the alien by rendering it recognizable, a variation on the landscape settlers came from. The new mapping, as often as not, represent as much the settler’s mentality, as the queerly new features of the foreign landscape under toponymic domestication. Australia is somewhat the extraordinary exception, and broke with the gusto for imperial nomenclature. There, following the pattern set by the earlier land surveyor Thomas Mitchell and his assistant Philip Elliott that “the natives can furnish you with names for every flat and almost every hill” (1828), native names were adopted in a standarized English form for both euphony and their characteristic relation to the landscape, and indeed a resolution was passed as early as 1884 which established the priority of native names in international usage. Often imperialism and nationalism go hand in hand. Napoleon’s troops, in 1796, could hardly communicate with each other, such were the grammatical, semantic and syntactical rifts between the various provincial patois at the time. By 1814, Napoleon had formed a European empire, and millions of provincials spoke the one, uniform language of the French state’s army. When two nations, or ethnie, occupy the same territory, the historical victor’s toponymic choices, dictated by the victor’s native language, and as articulated in bureaucratic documents and maps, usually determines what names are to be used. However, the presence of two distinct ethnie on the same national soil creates fissiparous tensions in nomenclature. Speaking of French and British conflict in Canada over areas, Susan Drummond, remarks that, 'Symbolic appropriation of a territory is a critical index of control’, and notes that, as late as 1962, the Québec cartographer Brochu, invoked the political dimension of place names as important, in the conflict with the majoritarian English heritage of Canada over the naming of the northern Inuit lands. Again, in another familiar example, Alfonso Pérez-Agote notes that Spain has its Basque Autonomous region, Euskadi. But the original force of that name covers an area beyond the administrative and territorial units of Spain, and Basque nationalists evoke its symbolic territory, comprising also the Basque area of Navarre in France. Euskadi has, on one level, within Spanish administrative discourse, a ‘territorial political objectification’, and on another level, in Basque nationalism, a ‘non-administratively objectified’ territory extending into a neighbouring country. The analogy with Israeli and Palestinian nationalism is close. In Israeli discourse, Israel or Eretz Israel can denote Israel and its outriding West Bank, while Palestine, which is the favoured term of West Bank Arabs for the land they inhabit, also can refer to the whole neighbouring territory of Israel as well. The anomaly, in comparative terms, is that history has settled the question, whatever local separatist nationalisms, revanchist or irredentist, may claim, except for such places as ‘Palestine’. For there, while Israel is a constituted state, it emerged the victor, manu militari in a conflict that gave it control over a contiguous land, but has no recognized legal right, since that land is defined as and ‘Occupied Palestinian Territory. Acts of unilateral annexation, the extension of administrative structures, settlements, toponymic remapping, and widescale expropriation of land in Palestinian title, is not only not recognized, but judged ‘illegal’ by the highest international bodies of law. All major encyclopedias (Encyclopædia Britannica, Encarta etc.,), except Wiki, maintain a strict neutrality, and, in recognition of the fraught difficulties, adopt the neutral toponymic convention of ‘(northern/southern) West Bank’ in order to avoid lending their prestige to the partisan politics of the parties in this regional conflict. (iii)The specific instance of Palestine and the West Bank When the British wrested control over Palestine from the Ottomans in the First World War, and established themselves there to administer the region, Selwyn Troen notes that, 'naming also became part of the contest for asserting control over Palestine'. As early as 1920 two Zionists advising the British Mandatory authority on everything regarding the assignment of Hebrew names, fought hard for the restoration of Hebraic toponymy, and when, with such places as Nablus, or indeed 'Palestine' itself, were given non-Hebrew names, they protested at the designations as evidence of discrimination against Jews. The point is made by the Israeli historian and cartographer Meron Benvenisti:-
One pauses to reflect. We are being accused here of 'anti-Jewish/Israeli discrimination' for refusing to insert Israeli toponyms into the West Bank. Nothing is said of the logic of this POV-pushing, i.e. that a Palestinian reader might well regard a Wiki endorsement of suc h foreign nomenclature as a 'searing defeat', and adduce it as proof of 'anti-Palestinian discrimination' both by Zionist editors, and Wikipedia itself. Since Zionism took root, and especially since Israel was founded, the making of a people, living in a defined territorial unit and speaking one language, has followed the universal pattern of modernity. The landscape, full of Arabic words, had to be renamed, often according to Biblical terminology, but, more often, by the invention of Biblical-sounding names. To do this, a good part of the 10,000 odd Arabic toponyms collected by Herbert Kitchener, T. E. Lawrence and others in surveying that part of the Middle East had to be cancelled, and replaced with Israeli/Hebrew terms, to remake the landscape and its topographic songlines resonate with historical depth. Hebrew is a ‘sacred tongue’ (Leshon HaQodesh:לשון הקודש), the Bible describes the conquest of Eretz Yisrael, and the dispossession of its indigenous peoples, who were not part of the chosen: the pattern is repeated in modern times, down to the renaming. The revival of Hebrew, with its potent shibboleths, understandably exercises a powerful hold over the new culture of the country. The problem is, as Steven Runciman pointed out in the mid-sixties, that the part assigned to Israel by the UN deliberation of 1947 was the western, non-Biblical part, whilst the part assigned to a future Palestinian state, what we now call the West Bank, is precisely the area most infused with Biblical associations cherished by the Jewish people, with sites and names redolent of the founding myths and realities of their ancient forefathers. Israelis, in their secular land, mostly dwell where the Philistines dwelt. The Palestinians dwell where the ancient Jewish tribes once settled. The tensions simmer between the secular Israel, which thrives in its new Mediterranean world, and the religiously-identified Israel that aspires to return to a geophysical space where origins and the present, the sacred nomenclature of the Bible and the modern world of Jewish life, might at least, once more overlap, in an ‘Adamic’ harmony congruent with the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. (iv)The Negev Precedent With the foundation of Israel, and in the aftermath of the 1948 war, the vast Negev and part of the Arava were captured, and Ben Gurion duly established a Negev Names Committee to ‘hebraize’ the landscape’s features, its mountains, valleys and springs. The area already had a rich Arab toponymy, and some on the committee thought these terms might be preserved as a ‘democratic gesture towards the Arab population of the new state.’ It was not to be. The nomadic Bedouin who dwelt throughout the area were rounded up and expelled by force. They had terms for everything, but with their uprooting and displacement, Benvenisti notes, ‘an entire world, as portrayed in their toponomastic traditions, died.' Ben Gurion wrote to the committee setting forth his view that:-
Political pressure and ‘the influence of patriotic arguments’ prevailed over those who, like S.Yeibin, thought the erasure of Arab names, many of which might preserve an archaic Hebrew origin. Yeibin thought this a disaster:-
Any Arabic toponym in short only interested the topographers in so far as it might provide a clue to reconstructing the hypothetical Hebraic original that might lie behind it. This consideration, however, often created a mess of concocted pseudo-traditional names. The hebraization of such Arabic toponyms did not restore the historic past, but invented a mythical landscape, resonant with traditionalist associations, that had, however, no roots in Jewish tradition. The most striking geologic formation in the Negev, Wadi Rumman was rewritten as if that word disguised an ancient Hebrew Ram ('elevated'), whereas the Arabic term it was calqued from actually meant 'Pomegranate Arroyo', for example. Reflecting on Benvenisti’s account in his larger study of language conflict in the Middle east, the Palestinian expatriate scholar Yasir Suleiman makes remarks that,
and likens this process of linguistic erasure of Arabic and the reconstitution of Hebrew metaphorically to the nakba:-
The record is therefore one of a linguistic cleansing of Palestine of any trace of its long Arabic history, and, as we shall see, an attempt to remodel Arabic usage in the territories Israel conquered and controls, to conform with Hebrew. Toponyms can only retain some semblance of an Arabic form, if that form is suspected to camouflage, in turn, an original Hebraic name. Adapting the reborn Hebrew language to the alien realities of the Palestinian landscape, the obvious problem was that the nomenclature for much of the flora and fauna, not to speak of the landscape itself, was infused with the very language, Arabic, a revarnished Hebrew had to compete with. As early as 1910 Jacob Fichman, a member of the Language Council, stated that Hebrew:
Hebrew was thus to be programmatically sealed off from Arabic, to prevent atrophisation, and cultivate purism by means of a fake Biblical antiquarianism. Theodor Adorno, writing in the melancholic aftermath of the Holocaust on the effects of cultural purism, once remarked on the purging of foreign words from German undertaken by nationalists intent restoring an ideal of cultural authenticity. He saw this as part of the pathology of nationalism in Germany. Foreign words were treated as if they were 'the Jews of language' (Fremdwörter sind die Juden der Sprache). In expunging the landscape and the human world of Palestine of its Arabic language, of landscape and culture, Zionism likewise treated Arabic as German or French linguistic purists treated loan-words in their own languages, or, later, actual Jews in their midst, as foreign bodies to be expelled, or expunged if a proper 'foundation for an authentically Jewish psyche' were to be successfully engineered. One would call this ironic, were it not so tragically melancholic in its unintended resonances. (v)The West Bank. History and Naming The relationship between demographic displacement and the loss of one's landscape through the erasure of its traditional placenames in Palestine has been remarked on by Paul Diehl.
In 1950, when King Abdullah, of the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan, unilaterally annexed the territory he had conquered in 1948, he changed the name of his country to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which incorporated the remaining fragment of Palestine as aḍ-Ḍiffä l-Ġarbīyä, or 'the West Bank' of that kingdom. The usage is still current in German (Westjordanland). Though only Britain recognized his annexation, the word itself found ready acceptance in, and was not, 'forced on', the international community, as Binyamin Netanyahu argued. In 1967, Israel conquered what the world knew as ‘The West Bank’, the Biblical heartland, and a decree calling it ‘Judea and Samaria’ was issued by the Israeli military on December 17 that year with the explicit definition that it would be identical in meaning for all purposes to the West Bank region to replace the interim terms 'Occupied Territories' (ha-shetahim ha-kevushim), and ‘the Administered Territories’ (ha-shetahim ha-muhzakim) in use since the immediate aftermath of the June war. The term 'Judea and Samaria' however was rarely used until Likud took power. The Labour Government never enacted a settlement policy, though Gush Emunim, an extremist settler ground with a fundamentalist ideology, pressed settlement, and propagated the terminology ‘Judea and Samaria’. When the Likud party, the maximalist, expansionist party with strong ties to both religious and ultra-Zionist groups and traditions, was elected in 1977, it imposed Samaria and Judea as the vox propria in modern Hebrew on the mass media, expressly forbidding the use of the international term West Bank. Notably, the government's imposing of these terms on Israeli usage was seen as a prerequisite for an envisioned settlement policy, since accepting the terms would predispose the public to accepting the policy. Gideon Aran describes the achievement:
The Camp David Accords negotiations of and the final agreement, in 1979, only underline how great was the linguistic rift between Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin's position and the American government intent on brokering an agreement.
A huge amount of wrangling between the American negotiators and Begin revolved around this term.
Begin refused to back down from his ‘rock-hard’ intransigence on using ‘Judea and Samaria’ and at the Camp David signing ceremony, (March 26,1979) several interpretive notes were required to be added as annexes to the basic documents, one specifically dealing with the West Bank, which President Carter annotated with his own hand with the words:
An ambitious programme of colonising settlement, toponomastic Hebraisation and cultural Judaization was undertaken, and indigenous Palestinians were shifted off their land, in a repetition of the Negev programme, which forms the precedent. The programme took wing especially after the unprovokedinvasion of Lebanon in 1982, whose key political objectives included ousting the refugee Palestinian resistance in the para-state on Israel’s northern flank from Lebanon, where the PLO projected a 'state in waiting' image that threatened Israel’s plans for long-term control over the West Bank. The war was, the head of the IDF said at the time, ‘part of the struggle over the Land of Israel. It aimed to further the isolation of Palestinians on the West Bank by depriving them of close support, halt the rise to political respectability of the PLO, which embodied Palestinian nationalist aspirations, and deprive that body of its claims to be a political partner in the peace process for Israel’s normalization of its relations with the outside world. One calculation, a minority view entertained by both Ariel Sharon and Raphael Eytan, however, was that, expelled from Lebanon, the PLO would be forced to return to Jordan, topple king Hussein, and establish a Palestinian state there to satisfy Palestinian national ambitions that Israel would thwart on the West Bank. Changing the realities of occupied territory by the manipulation of language, Hebrew, Arabic, and in controllable sources like the global Wikipedia, became a programmatic goal. The settlers were in fact 'colonists' in the old sense, but Israeli English usage has here prevailed in the politics of the culture wars to determine how the international community perceives the dynamics of that area. The corresponding Hebrew usage is complex (see Israeli settlements), but continuity with the biblical setlement of Eretz Yisrael is evoked by referring to Jewish settlers as mitnahalim. The root *n-h-l directly evokes a passage in the Book of Numbers where each tribe is assigned its portion on entering Canaan, or the Land of Israel, particularly as ' in the pledge by the tribes of Gad and Reuben that they will fight on the west side of the Jordan river to help the other tribes take possession of their assigned portions' Settlers, qua, mitnahalim are not colonizing anybody's land, in this usage: they are simply taking up their 'assigned portions' as those were marked out by God to the Chosen People. Rashid Khalidi has remarked how the Israeli authorities themselves try to engineer the way Palestinians think in Arabic by tampering with that language's natural idiom in the Arabic broadcasts they authorize. Over Israeli Arabic channels, one does not hear Jerusalem referred to, as it is customarily in Arabic, and by Palestinians, as Bayt al-Maqdis ('The House of Sanctity') or Al Quds al-Sharif ('The Noble Holy Place'). Arabic usage as sanctioned by Israel speaks rather of Urshalim ('Jerusalem') or Urshalim/al-Quds ('Jerusalem Al-Quds'). The purpose is to diffuse a variety of Arabic names for places that are calques on the Hebrew terms chosen for the area. This goes right through the bureaucratic language, a form of linguistic colonization that reinforces the physical occupation of the west Bank by cultural re-engineering. A new travel permit was imposed on the colonized Palestinians in the West Bank in 2002, and required of any of them wishing to travel in that area. This was issued, printed and released by Israeli authorities who call it in Arabic Tasrih tanaqul khas fi al-hawajiz al-dakhiliyya fi mantaqat yahuda wa al-samara. ('Special Travel Permit for the Internal Checkpioints in the Area of Judea and Samaria.'). Here, Palestinians who must travel in the West Bank, for them 'Filastin', are required to obtain a document which requires that area to be referred to by the settler term, 'Judea and Samaria'. It is this form of Arabic which they are expected to use in negotiating their way with Israeli authorities through checkpoints. But West Bank Palestinians simply abbreviate it and refer to their tasrih dakhili (Checkpoint permit), thereby eluding the settler term imposed on them. Michael Sfard indeed has spoken of Hebrew being mobilized to lend itself to the national emergency of occupying Palestine, and denying the Palestinians the liberty to be themselves. They are passive subjects of an activist language that wraps them about in bureaucratic euphemisms.
A proposal is now being made to apply the principle of Hebraization, as of 2009, even to those places within Israel which the world designates by traditional toponyms, such as Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) Nazareth (Natzrat) and Jaffa (Yafo). According to Yossi Sarid, the process, illustrated further by Knesset proposals to eliminate Arabic as one of Israel's official languages, constitutes a form of ethnocide. (vi) Analysis of Ynhockey's suggestions
We are dealing with a defined territory and its naming. User:Ynhockey would make tidy distinctions, define the bound geographical territory (CIA Factbook) as just a political reality, and use Judea and Samaria for all other contexts. In his own work on Wiki, much of it admirable, we find many maps. Examine the following map he authored and uploaded, and which is employed on the Battle of Karameh The central colour, a washed acquamarine tint, allows one to highlight the field of movement in the battle, and blurs the neat territorial division between the West Bank, and Jordan. But note that, in a wholly unnecessary manner, Israel is stamped in large bold characters and made to overlay the West Bank, which is placed diminutively in parentheses. Willy-nilly, the impression is that the West Bank is some territorial hypothesis or province within Israel. Whether Ynhockey meant to give the reader this impression or not is immaterial. Maps, as one source already quoted noted, reflect the cognitive bias of the mapmaker as much as an interpretation of a landscape, and here the bias is that the West Bank is under Israel, behind Israeli lines, a subset of that state. It is a fine example of what many cartographers and historians of cartography argue: the making of maps, and toponymic nomenclature in them, serves several purposes, to clarify, as here, a battle landscape, for example, but also to impose or assert power, or claims, or blur facts. Objectively, User:Ynhockey has loaded wiki with a map that cogs our perceptions, tilting them to an annexationist assumption. Indeed, unlike the Israeli government so far, his map actually looks like it has the West Bank annexed. Further reading:
Our text currently reads that "[Israeli Defense Forces, IDF] says Hamas was using the Gazan population as 'human shields'; an allegation denied by Hamas," and "In response, Israel claimed that many civilian casualties were the result of Hamas using the Gazan population as 'human shields' at alleged missile launch targets, an allegation denied by Hamas." This text seems incorrect, as Hamas has on multiple occasions acknowledged using human shields, both during this conflict, and in general, and praised those who use that tactic as martyrs. (Although they have in other contexts denied it as well.) How should we correctly describe this part? Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri: "The people oppose the Israeli fighter planes with their bodies alone... I think this method has proven effective against the occupation. It also reflects the nature of our heroic and brave people, and we, the [Hamas] movement, call on our people to adopt this method in order to protect the Palestinian homes." "We call on our Palestinian people, particularly the residents of northwest Gaza, not to obey what is written in the pamphlets distributed by the Israeli occupation army. We call on them to remain in their homes and disregard the demands to leave, however serious the threat may be"
Gaijin42 (talk) 14:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC) Better source : http://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-gaza-residents-acting-human-shields-israeli-forces-258223Gaijin42 (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
clarification The question is not "Should we say Hamas admitted to use of Human shields in video X" but "Should the video be mentioned, in the context that entities/sources X,Y, Z have brought it up in discussions/allegations about IF Hamas uses human shields". Gaijin42 (talk) 20:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I have notified the NPOV, NOR, and RSN noticeboards about this RFC Survey
Threaded discussion
My computer stalls whenever I open the Economist. The statement below looks like a reference to the Kaware family incident, it is false, or at least not factual. See under Kaware at List of Israeli strikes and Palestinian casualties in Operation Protective Edge.
Sources at the time of the article 12 often repeated this, and the Economist has taken it up. You need in-depth interviews to work what the motives were. In the Kaware case, it appears some children went on the roof to check out the damage to a solar heating device hit by a rocket (which they took to be a near-miss, as the family thought the danger period had passed and reentered the house). Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 25 July 2014 (UTC) I removed the addition by Gaijin42 as it violates WP:SYNTH:
Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It seems to me that the best wording is something like: Israeli has asserted that Hamas uses 'human shields' to defend militants and weapons based on Israeli's analysis of videos and photographs showing civilians on rooftops of buildings, allegations that Hamas has rejected. Or what would you all suggest? In terms of Zuhri's quote, it's not clear at all (as referred to by many people in the RFC) that's he calling for people to submit themselves into being shields. Putting that spin on it is, well, just that: a certain Israeli-based spin, which is their legitimate POV to assert but shouldn't be written as just a fact. Word it like: Israelis have also cited __'s comment of "__", which they argue is a call for human shielding but Hamas has disputed.? CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 03:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Comparing Arab-Israeli matters to WWII The comparison between "undereported" events and "Vad yashem accounts of the Holocaust" is quite offensive and lacks basic sensitivity.[8] The same goes for misrepresenting Israeli officials with fake/out-of-context quotes (Note: Weissglass says nothing about food) and soapboxing about genocide, "military power out to be a lachrymose victim", et al. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 02:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
In short, editors in this area should familiarize themselves with the topic (any brief allusion to the real history of this area is habitually dismissed as 'soapboxing' ). Lack of knowledge of both history and who said what means that the obvious seems surprising, if not a travesty of the (lack of) knowledge one might possess. So kindly drop it. I'm busy. Nishidani (talk) 10:48, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Wider review: Nishidani I'm having trouble getting past these repeated 'genocide' assertions, as well as the matter of allusions between Arab-Israeli matters and WWII. I am posting for wider review on WP:AE. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 20:29, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
The same comparison: In description of your revert:
I am not sure that Wikipedia is the right place for such comparisons. --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:21, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Historically children often participated in conflict, and often died as a result. If the article reports deaths of underage militants as something out of the ordinary, then their participation in the fighting must also be represented as something out of the ordinary. If there is nothing unusual in their involvement in fighting, then the number of children dying (513) is notable only for being relatively low - 23% of the causalities vs 44% of general Gaza population.“WarKosign” 11:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I suppose the difference between "ill-sourced trivia" and "integral part of the debate" is whether the statement promotes your agenda or hinders it. Nobody belittles the number of children - but the nature and reason of their deaths have to be attributed properly. Some of the reported children participated in fighting, some of them were in fact adult militants, some were killed by Hamas's own rockets, some were "urged" to stay at homes, and some were killed by the IDF. Not stating these facts in the article misleads the reader into thinking that IDF killed more than it in fact did. I'm sure that after all the validations are complete there will still remain enough children killed by IDF to satisfy any Israel hater. “WarKosign” 13:18, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry I wasted both of our times. As my usual experience with you, I did not get a response to the essence but a flood of obscure references to unimportant points. You repeatedly accused editors of serving hasbara, yet you follow Hamas's manual almost point-for-point. I will try to suppress my urge to open this page in the future, even if I see other editors making comments here. “WarKosign” 14:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the WP articles on Exceptionalism/ Indispensability Nishidani, which books or scholarly articles do you recommend on the ancient roots of today's delusional belief among almost all countries in the globe that they, and their people, are exceptional or indispensable? Did you by any chance read 'The Assassination of Julius Caesar: A People's History of Ancient Rome' by Michael Parenti? I recommend it. Additionally, you may want to take a look at an interesting recent article on some of the ancient roots (going back to ancient Greece) of the modern Israeli, American, Chinese, Japanese, UK, Russian, French, German, Spanish, Indian, Brazilian, Nigerian, South African, Chilean, Columbian, Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti, Iranian (as well as many more countries') power elites pushing their citizenry into the mental illness of falsely believing in their own exceptionalism/ indispensability/ grandiosity/ uniqueness. IjonTichy (talk) 03:23, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Quotes from the book Johnny Got His Gun. IjonTichy (talk) 08:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
ZScarpia, care to explain your deliberate mischaracterization of Netanyahu's accurate comparison of the Hamas rocket attack on Israel to Nazi Germany's attacks on Britain? The Gazans are very similar to the Nazis and even have the same ideology of wanting to genocide all Jews. How come you people never post links that cast Arabs or Muslim in a bad light? You always post anti-Israel crap. Here are some things to enlighten you:
(unsigned comment left by 190.94.210.123)
ZScarpia, care to explain your deliberate mischaracterization of Netanyahu's accurate comparison of the Hamas rocket attack on Israel to Nazi Germany's attacks on Britain? The theme of my postscript was hypocrisy and double standards. A bit of context: recently, a complaint was made about Nishidani's use of the Warsaw Ghetto as an example, the complaint being based on the (bogus) grounds that the ADL has stated that comparisons between the regime in Israel and that in Nazi Germany are anti-Semitic. Now, if supporters of Israel find such comparisons objectionable, shouldn't supporters of Israel avoid making those comparisons about others? If making comparisons between the two regimes is anti-Semitic, then what adjective should be used when supporters of Israel make similar comparisons about others. A case in point, which is why I highlighted it to Nishidani, is Netanyahu's comparison between Hamas rocket attacks on Israel and German ones on Britain during the Second World War [13][14]. The justification comment you left above serves as another case in point: The Gazans are very similar to the Nazis and even have the same ideology of wanting to genocide all Jews. As far as accuracy goes, you might like to read the linked-to Telegraph articles and also look at the Wikipedia ones on Qassam and V-2 rockets. If Netanyahu's speech writer had read the latter, perhaps he or she might not have made the historically erroneous claim that, "There's only been one other instance where a democracy has been rocketed and pelleted with these projectiles of death, and that's Britain during World War Two." Since the total Israeli death toll due to rocket attack is three people, if Hamas is really trying to "genocide all Jews", obviously their current rocket strategy isn't the way they're going to achieve it. ← ZScarpia 23:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Regarding chronology of rocket fire. Basic claim is: Pre July 6 rockets were fired by non-Hamas groups. Post July 6 rockets were fired by Hamas. Here are the sources. Some may be ambiguous, but taken together, demonstrate the point, I think. Virtually everyone dates the start of Hamas rocket fire at July 6.
I found only one which disagrees. It is quite possible that he is simply not differentiating between Hamas and non-Hamas factions. J J Goldberg "On June 29, an Israeli air attack on a rocket squad killed a Hamas operative. Hamas protested. The next day it unleashed a rocket barrage, its first since 2012. The cease-fire was over" Kingsindian (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
No offense, but both of you are wasting time debating responsibility. Basic neutral solution, write "Israel considers Hamas responsible". Doesn't matter which Arab liberation militia does what as long as long as it is clearly a racial based terrorist act, Israel can blame either Hamas or Fatah based on whatever information the Shin Beit has (or whatever the Prime Minister feels like). It is not Wikipedia's place to start making disclaimers (unless, there's a really good one that I'm missing? Did a UK resident did the killing or something silly like that?). MarciulionisHOF (talk) 16:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC) Noam Chomsky says "Israel also conducted dozens of attacks in Gaza, killing 5 Hamas members on July 7... Hamas finally reacted with its first rockets in 19 months, Israeli officials reported, providing Israel with the pretext for Operation Protective Edge on July 8". See Outrage, written on 2 August 2014 in Z Communications. --IRISZOOM (talk) 17:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC) People seem to be missing a really simple point here, which is that rockets are not like pistols or knives, that is, weapons that may be privately owned and distributed. They are a form of artillery, and are therefore mostly used and deployed by state actors, or quasi-state actors like Hamas. To say that non-Hamas sources fired some rockets is therefore absurd; Hamas builds and pays for the rockets, therefore, when they are fired, it is highly unlikely that Hamas knew nothing about it, or had nothing to do with it; rather the opposite. In other words, it is a distinction without a difference. Hamas fires the rockets, one way or another, all of them. Theonemacduff (talk) 00:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC) This article says "Hamas and its affiliates had been firing rockets off and on throughout June", which contradicts the official story that Hamas began firing only as a response to Israel's aggression. “WarKosign” 08:18, 22 October 2014 (UTC) Now Nishidani helpfully provided this article, supposedly from a "mainstream Western newspapers, written by [a] competent journalist" that says that "on June 29 or 30 did Hamas restart the rocket bombardment of Israeli territory". Currently the article does not say that Hamas began its fire on July 7, only intensified it and took formal responsibility - the only change that perhaps is needed is to mention end of June as beginning of Hamas's fire. “WarKosign” 16:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
ITIC - (analysis of Gaza Health Ministry's data only): @WarKosign, pls pay attention that ITIC doesn't approve the number of "2,157 killed". As I see, it's their database for analysis only :
This is the reason why I've added the "(analysis of Gaza Health Ministry's data only)". --Igorp_lj (talk) 11:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Obviously I do not think my actions violate any policy or I wouldn't be performing them. I do read your claims carefully and so far your argument consisted of very few facts and a lot of emotions, this did not convince me. Not all the editors here will agree with you, I believe that even editors inclined to prefer the Hamas point of view will find your opinions extreme. Each of us is not alone here, editors either find a way to co-exist with editors they disagree with or they find themselves not being editors anymore. Please read up on edit warring and on when reverting is acceptable. “WarKosign” 21:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
What you never read in the mainstream Western press. David Sheen’s Bundestag presentation. Almost every single point was mentioned in passing in most sources, but in isolation, and often en passant. Nishidani (talk) 18:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Like so many people who form opinions quicker than Bob Mundan can draw his pistol, you have no knowledge of the people or the subject, and indeed from the timestamp it is clear that you hadn't taken the trouble to read the link, since you replied within 19 minutes, whilst Sheen's speech to the Bundestag committee lasts 25 minutes. And of that 19 minutes you spent at least several googling the usual blogs that associate criticism of anything israeli with anti-Semitism. The Wiesnthal list is a farce, and Blumenthal, had you listened to the related Russell Tribunal on the Gaza War speeches, was proud to be included in it, along with several other distinguished Jews whose humanity is not compromised by an 'ethics' which draws judgements based on the ethnic identity of the subject. If Sheen and Blumental are anti-Semites, so is Mads Gilbert (BBC HARDtalk - Dr Mads Gilbert - Doctor and Activist) (who is anchored in the practical realities, not in your blogospheres of kibitzing nitwits), and, for that matter, myself. Still, as a philologist, I register the fact here that anti-Semitism now also refers to anyone who has empathy for the dispossessed, doesn't look at the ethnicity of a person before expressing sympathy for his plight, and is not blinded by ideologies of ethnic exceptionalism. But, this is pointless. Go away.Nishidani (talk) 19:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Mhhossein,TheTimesAreAChanging: Will these sources work for you ?
“WarKosign” 06:47, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
@WarKosign: Sorry for the delay. By a reliable third party source I did not mean a source who has access to the data of the both side. I mean a source with no (or the least) orientation toward the parties involved. I mean, we should not write such a challenging material on the basis of no real document! In fact non of the sources say how it is understood that the civilians were of the goals of hamas militants. I reckon, it is not fair to say for sure they were going to kill and kidnap civilians! But I'm in agreement with WarKosign when he says that we should give enough room for properly attributed claims by both sides as provided by reliable sources. It is our Job here to let the Wikipedia readers know the claims of both sides, not for this specific subject but for all of the matters. We have to mention exactly who is claiming X and who is claiming Y and say why they are claiming so. If they have no reasoning behind their claims we can understand who might be right! This is what I believe and that's why I'm upset with how TheTimesAreAChanging is editing this text! I'd like to ask him to make a self revert, because of the problems mentioned above, or to mention that this is just a claim by a party and also add the claims from the opposite partiy. Thanks Mhhossein (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
@WarKosign: I'd like to add mesh'al denial. Could you please give me the source? Mhhossein (talk) 05:18, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Recent change - another source: I noticed this revert. Without getting into whether or not the way the argument is presented is correct (I haven't fully checked), would USA Today be accepted? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 06:42, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Bias in the article: As we all know this article has a very heavy anti-Palestinian bias so I thought I would list some of the problems I see so we can go about improving this article.
And there are more problems but these are just a few I listed which make it seem as though this article is the property of the IDF. Dr. R.R. Pickles (talk) 23:57, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I'll humour you:
Next time, read the article and check your facts before you write. “WarKosign” 06:29, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Unity government salaries @Nishidani: You wrote "Netanyahu took Palestinian unity as a threat rather than an opportunity, and blocked the transfer of salaries from the PNa to Hamas officials". Your source says "Israel prevented the transfer of salaries to 43,000 Hamas officials in Gaza" (without direct connection to threat/opportunity). There are other sources saying that "Barely a week after the national unity government was sworn in, the reconciliation efforts appear to be teetering on the brink over who should pay the salaries of 50,000 Hamas-appointed civil servants in Gaza." and "The salary crisis concerns 50,000 employees, 10,000 of whom receive their salaries from the PA, while the remaining 40,000 get paid by Hamas a total of $25 million per month." Surely if it was Israel blocking the money they wouldn't forget to mention it. “WarKosign” 18:33, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Harassment TheTimesAreAChanging I’m putting you on notice. You have three times made automatic reverts of the rare edits I make, in a way that violates WP:AGF, are incoherent in policy terms and override talk page discussion. This suggests you are targeting my editing to a purpose, i.e.dislike or for harassment. Do this once more, without exercising the courtesy of addressing a perceived problem on the talk page, and you will be reported. (1) first automatic revert with spurious edit summary:’Random blog by assistant professor tentatively recounting a "very convoluted" Arab media report that also mentions Hamas' repeated public statements rocket fire would continue until the end of the blockade is undue.’ This turned out, per the talk page, to be an authoritatively sourced statement, and was restored by another editor. (2) second automatic revert with meaningless edit summary:’ Nishidani, is it that hard to write a logically coherent sentence? (Escalation refers to massive upsurge in rocket attacks until Israel met Hamas' demands.’. 'Premature escalation' is a nonsense expression in English. (3) third automatic revert, with spurious edit summary, generic accusation and a non-policy based ‘rationale. ‘ RV POV-push with bad formatting.’ It also contradicts the verdict of the relevant talk page section where two editors agreed to my proposal and only you, (aside from the now suspended editor MarciulionisHOF, whose remarks were incoherent in policy terms, disagreed. Given it is now effectively 3 against 1, the edit I made, duly discussed, has legitimate warrant to be reincluded. Disagreements about formatting are not reasons for reverting. Editors normatively fix bad formatting. No evidence is given for the assertion that an edit I proposed on the talk page is POV-pushing. It was closer to the source, etc. Nishidani (talk) 19:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Occupation WarCosin. this use of 'attribution' for the term 'occupation' is completely wrong. It is the status of Israel's presence in international law, underwritten by the UN Security Council Resolution 271 (15 September 1969), calling on Israel to 'scrupulously to observe the provisions of the Geneva Conventions and international law governing military occupation' and by the International Court of Justice's Legal Consequences of the Construction nof a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. There's no elbow room for playing mickey mouse with the text. Meshaal was using the standard language of law, not expressing his own opinion. I will revert this if no one else does.Nishidani (talk) 17:44, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Strong evidence @Nishidani: Sharon wrote "in possession of evidence strongly indicating the teens were dead". In your version it became "strong evidence in its possession that the teens had been killed". The evidence became strong which is a legal term not applicable here, and suddenly it is not "indicating" but concluding. I tried to add 'hinting' but you reverted it without discussing. I am ok with "suggesting" "pointing" or such. Goldberg detailed what the evidence was and wrote "There was no doubt" but it contradicts Sharon who wrote "indicated". A bullet hole and some DNA (even if it's blood) leaves plenty of hope that a person is still alive. They were "acting on the assumption that they’re alive", which is natural in any search and rescue operation - what's the point in quoting it ? “WarKosign” 22:18, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
From an Arbitration Enforcement (AE) Complaint Against Nishidani
2014-12-01 As for 'murder' versus 'killing', my impression is that the former is a legal definition applied to taking someone's life, whereas the latter is generic for the same thing. Did Max Schur kill or murder Sigmund Freud? Many Christians would say he murdered him, making a sectarian-theological and legal judgement. Idem for Koga Hiroyasu's beheading of Mishima Yukio, which, like killing one's wounded companion in Britain's Afghan wars, was, in terms of military culture, an act of pity, though forbidden in law. How does one define Herschel Grynszpan's killing of Ernst von Rath? Legally, it's murder, though the Holocaust was round the corner. The Nazis called it symptomatic of a vast Jewish terrorist conspiracy, just as newspapers habitually call these days any murder with some profound political grievance behind it 'terror'. There is a cultural and technical bias in our use and application of these terms. Murder is distinguished from manslaughter in that in the former there is malice aforethought. I guess as distinct from assassinations which, if made by a state, putatively are not driven by malice, but are cold-blooded liquidations of perceived enemies of that state, though to an outside eye, quite primitive notions of vengeance typical of frontier wars or feuds would be seen to be compact of many such acts. The Israeli indictment against the soldier who furtively changed his ammo case, and shot dead, first Nadim Nuwara, and then apparently, after an hour shot dead Odeh Salameh in the Beitunia killings cites the soldier for manslaughter, not murder, though it is difficult to see how, in the space of an hour one can sight up and shoot two individuals without premeditative enmity of the kind usually defining murder charges. We call them killings, but, had the targets been Israelis, the newspapers would have reported them as murders. Now, to this evening's movie, hopefully a comedy. Regards Nishidani (talk) 20:01, 27 November 2014 (UTC) Regarding to your "Russian immigrants were raised in an imperial dictatorship..." (without any smile) as well as for the following your edit's description "Sure, but from a PA perspective, inviting an Israeli investigation is pointless. They only investigate Arab crimes against settlers" - I remind you about wp:NOTFORUM & wp:NPOV rules. --Igorp_lj (talk) 00:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Death of Netanel Arami Wikipedia: Articles for deletion/ Death of Netanel Arami See Wikipedia: Articles for deletion/ Murder of Netanel Arami: The Israeli authorities (after intense lobbying from the dead man's family and friends) have claimed the death to be a "terrorist" death. No one
--Epeefleche (talk) 09:27, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
The debate is now closed. The above discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article. The result was delete. User:Nishidani's evaluation of the sources pretty much makes the (very weak) keep arguments moot, and there was no proper counterargument offered. Clear consensus that this fails WP:EVENT. This is how sources should be evaluated in every potentially controversial AFD. Secret 23:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
CounterPunch I've come across a few references to CounterPunch which, I note, has a number of links from article space. I see from this page's archives that CounterPunch's reliability has been discussed briefly before, but I'm unclear as to what the general view is of this source's reliability. Any thoughts? -- ChrisO (talk) 01:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Since when is Daniel Pipes notable in any way similar to Noam Chomsky? Chomsky has a very wide and international notability in several areas of scholarship and political commentary, whereas Pipes certainly does not. Do you mean that within arch-conservative cultures Chomsky is regarded as a wackjob the way that Pipes is amongst those of the far left who even know who is? While I get the similarity here on Wikipedia in terms of perceived POV, let's not delude ourselves about the notability of minor ideologues (vs. quite major ideologues).PelleSmith (talk) 11:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
From Talk: 2014 Jerusalem synagogue massacre
Counterpunch We have 4 sources for the statement, all issued on the day of the murders, repeating the same information. We had from Ramzy Baroud a piece written 10 days later which analysed claims and counterclaims in an historical light. Just editwarring without examining sources is pointless. This is the lay of the textual land, copied to allow resaders who don't read links to actually check.
Extra Note not used by us, but citing Baroud.
From Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard: Source in question: Ramzy Baroud, 'The Rise and Fall of Palestine’s Socialists,' Counterpunch November 27, 2014. Is Ramzy Baroud writing for Counterpunch a reliable source for facts concerning the obscure Marxist splinter group Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine? I tried to raise a discussion on this, providing detailed sources that showed that the text at 2014 Jerusalem synagogue attack was false, by citing Baroud's article. This was dismissed by a mechanical reference to an, to me, inconclusive debate back 6 years ago, at RSN. I don't think a single, dated, unsatisfactory discussion here can be taken as binding for eternity as though it were established policy. My view is that one must examine the quality of the source (Baroud, not Counterpunch), the standing of the author, and the nature of the material requested to be used. It turns out that later sources I turned up confirmed what Baroud had documented, yet regardless of this (a good test of reliability) some editors just refuse to accept him, since the article appeared in a journal they appear to dislike. Counterpunch 'muckrakes', a perfectly legitimate branch of Investigative journalism which was the particular area of expertise of its founder Alexander Cockburn, and of one of its leading writers Patrick Cockburn, an expert on the Middle East. It specializes in getting over authoritative opinions that are not aired in the mainstream press. Counterpunch exposed the New York Times presentation of the fabricated data leading to the decision to invade Iraq (and was cited by mainstream historians like Chalmers Johnson for doing so. See his The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic, Macmillan, 2007 pp.351,352,363,364). The mainstream source got everything wrong, and Counterpunch proved it. It publishes ex-Wall Street financial experts turned academics like Michael Hudson, Reaganite economists like Paul Craig Roberts, retired CIA analysts like Franklin C. Spinney, U.S. Senate national security expert and Congressional Budget specialists like Winslow T. Wheeler, Christian political conservatives like William S. Lind, historians like Robert Fisk, Israeli Knesset figures and pundits like Uri Avnery and Ari Shavit, historians like Gabriel Kolko, Peter Linebaugh and East Asian specialists like Brian Cloughley and Gary Leupp. None of these are known for their ideological brow-beating or slipshod use of facts, for example. To the contrary. They are polished, notable and established experts in their respective fields. As to Ramzy Baroud, he is an Arabist, has 3 well-received books to his credit, and as a journalist, publishes widely in such mainstream press outlets as The Washington Post, The International Herald Tribune, The Christian Science Monitor, The Philadelphia Inquirer, The Seattle Times, Arab News, The Miami Herald, The Japan Times, Al-Ahram Weekly, Asia Times, Al Jazeera etc., as well as working on a late doctorate at Exeter University. Baroud's Counterpunch article is scholarly, analytic and cites all the statements by links to the relevant primary sources in Arabic etc., so they can be independently confirmed. In reply to Cptono's note about editorial control over content. Well, why is it partisan I/P editors never raise queries about quality control the following sources used throughout the article, none of which is known to exercise editorial control on fact checking, none of which to my knowledge has a reputation for reportorial or in depth accuracy by area specialists, and many of which are dubious. The answer is, they are all, save 2 'friendly' to a POV (which Baroud's article is not).
Independent outsider reviews of this issue would be appreciated. Thank you. Nishidani (talk) 20:29, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
So, back in 2008, in a short discussion, Counterpunch was not dismissed out of hand. The majoir commentators put an unless/if condition on citation. Both Epeefleche and Cptono are taking it as a thumbs down, when the verdict was mixed and conditional. Secondly, the question I posed is not whether Counterpunch is reliable, but whether a notable author specializing on the I/P area, who, unlike all the other newspapers cited in the article, examined the primary Arabic sources, and correctly noted what the newspapers on day one failed to note, is citable. If we say he isn't, we are potentially laying down a precedent that a notable author/specialist cannot be used to correct an error on Wikipedia if his views are only cited in a non-mainstream newspaper. That is fatuously absurd.Nishidani (talk) 11:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC) There is now another discussion below on this. To get things on track, it would be awesome if people completely involved could discuss if: A) Counterpunch is reliable? and B) Is the author Ramzy Baroud's and/or his column significant enough to warrant inclusion? Edit in question: here. Article is 2014 Jerusalem synagogue attack (by the way, if we had another source we wouldn't have to even worry about it)Cptnono (talk) 06:02, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
It's not correct information. It was banned as radio station before 10+ years and I've already notified you that there is legal Galei Israel station in this radio niche. What we are talking about as a source now is Israel National News - one of many different quoted sources in a broad Israeli media spectrum.
your personal views & negative characterisations of these sources make no sense without concrete examples proving their not-reliability. --Igorp_lj (talk) 13:33, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
As noted above - Counterpunch is usable for opinions cited as opinions. It is not specifically known for fact reportage, nor is it considered a secondary reliable source for claims of fact. At least per discussions here. Collect (talk) 14:11, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
There is a dispute above in Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard on d Ramzy Baroud about the interpretation of a prior discussion's results, concerning Counterpunch as a source. Almost no outside editors have pitched in as yet (topic may look too complex). Could experienced wikipedians please read and interpret precisely the 'majority view' at this discussion which took place in 2008. Thank you. Nishidani (talk) 17:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Dude. CounterPunch has been brought here more than once. Stop trying to make arguments based off of a single discussion. This might be in regards to yet another attempt to put it in or it is based off of above. If it is the latter, just chill out and let the conversation develop without freaking out. Cptnono (talk) 05:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
If a video accompanies a text by an 'alternative' news outlet does this affect our definition of RS? In the WP content area I work in, much of one side of a complex reality is ignored or underreported, though covered in part by sources I personally try not to use except when the context or authorship of the piece seems to justify using them. At Skunk (weapon), some editors are claiming that
cannot be used. These episodes are underreported in Israeli newspapers. They are of high relevance to the Palestinian side. Haggai Matar and Anni Robbins are journalists. Matar writes in Hebrew, worked for Haaretz and Ma'ariv, and won the 2012 Anna Lindh Mediterranean Journalist Award. Annie Robbins's works for Mondoweiss. I am less sure that she fits the profile, but her article is not what we normally understand as blogging. It is documented reportage. The objection is that these are blogs. +972 Magazine has quite a lot of journalists who publish in Israeli Hebrew-language newspapers, and some like Larry Derfner, former editor for the Jerusalem Post and Mairav Zonzein are published in mainstream Western newspapers, and mainstream Jewish journals like The Forward. The two articles in question hosted by +972 Magazine and Mondoweiss contain videos illustrating the journalists' reportage. Does the presence of videos documenting what the text refers to validate these as sources specifically for what the WP article describes? My view on such borderline cases is contextual, whether the source informs, or rants, or just opinionizes. I see both of these specific sources as examples of straight reportage of an otherwise under-described (in Western mainstream media) events. Nishidani (talk) 12:34, 29 December 2014 (UTC) I have no real expertise here, but my guess would be that the Matar piece would qualify as a reliable source, based on the reputation of the author, and that the Robbins piece might qualify as corroboration of Matas if such were deemed to be required. I would tend to agree that blog posts which are obviously of an opinionated nature probably can't be used, but I think we have in the past found that blog entries of some newspapers and news sources do qualify as reliable, and if these meet similar criteria, as I think they probably do, they would qualify. The presence of videos in some sites, like perhaps Joshua Bonehill-Paine's website, given the, um, reputation of the site and its author in general, might be different, but those would I think be separate cases from this one. John Carter (talk) 20:02, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately, in December, your selective choice of sources and the same selective edit, only confirming your point of view - See HAMAS: "are Nishidani's last edits NPOV?". Today, (diff), it seems me close (sorry), to some kind of falsification. I have to remind you again that selective choice & quoting is a violation of the rules of NPOV. --Igorp_lj (talk) 17:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Davidbena: User:Huldra seems to be pursuing a political agenda bent on defaming Israel by its action in the winter of 1948, when I have insisted that she remain neutral, and not to politicize the situation. Specifically, User:Huldra prefers to mention Bayt Nattif of October 1948 as a "Palestinian-Arab village," when I propose that it is far better to simply write "Arab village," since in October of 1948 Bayt Nattif was then under the direct governance of the new government of Israel, based on the partition plan relegated to Israeli and Jordanian authorities by the dissolved British Mandate. To suggest that Bayt Nattif was, in October of 1948, a "Palestinian-Arab village" is to suggest a sovereign governmental body by the name of Palestine given charge over the village's affairs when it was actually the new State of Israel that had been given charge over its affairs. To avoid this seemingly contentious issue, I have suggested keeping the introductory lines neutral in accordance with WP policy of WP:NPOV and by simply writing "Arab village." (For a greater summary, see Bayt Nattif's Talk Page (bottom section) Davidbena (talk) 23:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC) Question: What is the proper way of seeking professional advice from experienced editors, without abrogating the WP guidelines which look with disdain on "canvassing"? Honestly, how can I go about seeking professional counsel and advice? If anyone notes my own words, I have actually called out for advice, rather than asking editors to side with me in this dispute. Davidbena (talk) 03:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Number 57 Not sure whether I am uninvolved, as I have been editing related articles, but as far as I can see, the first edit is not a revert of any other edit (the very first version of the article used the phrase in question), so Davidbena has only actually reverted once. Number 57 23:30, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000 Davidbena has also been violating WP:CANVASS over the same issue: [43] [44] [45] [46]. Zero 00:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC) Statement by Nishidani: No violation, but, David, (you asked for advice), your reasoning is deeply defective, and you are trying to establish a precedent that would affect several hundred wiki pages. When the impact of an edit is so far-reaching, it requires consensus. Your reasoning is defective because the verb 'to be' (was) describes a continuous state. It was a Palestinian (under the British Mandate for Palestine) Arab village. The argument that, once its inhabitants were driven out by a conquering Israeli army it became overnight therefore 'governed' by Israel and therefore became 'Arab' not 'Palestinian', is meaningless. The village was blown up (partially on the suspicion that some of the villagers had destroyed a Palmach relief convoy to the Etzion Bloc earlier in January that year), and nothing remained to be 'governed'. The article is not about the village on 23 October, 1948, but the historic village that existed until the Palmach brigade blew it to pieces. It is customary to define such places as Palestinian Arab on Wikipedia, 'Arab' satisfying an Israeli POV that Palestinians did not exist, and 'Palestinian' to satisfy Palestinian traditions that they did exist before 1948 as well as before 1967. Nishidani (talk) 17:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC) Result concerning Davidbena This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
I don't mind, indeed I relish the stimulus, of hard challenges in editing from any userr. But Skunk (weapon) is getting farcical. Would you do me the courtesy of looking at edits like this. It is wrong on all technical grounds, invites edit-warring, and is not healthy for the encyclopedia, regardless of POV merits. Of course, a request is not under an obligation, but while I almost never agree with you, your editing is rigorously based on a respect for wiki protocols, and there lies my trust that you can examine that page fairly. Nishidani (talk) 19:44, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the WP article on the Israeli settlement named Carmel, the two articles from Haaretz and the New York Times which I introduced there have really a lot of excellent material on the farming, commercial activities and industries at that settlement. I had that in mind when I read them, particularly the Haaretz article. I hardly have much time for Wikipedia, what time I have is devoured by pointless bickering that eats into productive additions. It was obvious to me in adding the excellent Haaretz article the other day that there was an hour or two of work needed to balance out the article with details on life, work and productivity. But, fuck it, I can't do anything. My real complaint with editors is that when a source like that is used partially, as I did, because of lack of time, they don't study it closely and add everything else in it that balances the perspective. I should do that of course, but every edit I do takes a long while, since I usually check several other sources as well before I do it.The material on the Israeli 'positive' side's there, and should be harvested. If you or anyone has time, they'd save my honour (lack of time these days) by filling it out.Nishidani (talk) 22:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
On 'mainstream source bias, and many links to relevant analyses that show the corruption that threatens many of our sources Stephen Walt 'Hacks and Hird Guns,' Foreign Policy 9 September 2014.Nishidani (talk) 08:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Lisa Goldman, How Bibi Tried To Make Paris All About Him The Forward 12 January 2015
I liked especially the last bit, how he "marched with world leaders"...and then he Crops Out PA President Abbas From Photo Released Of World Leaders At Paris Rally when tweeting the picture. Noted. Huldra (talk) 20:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Probably this ought to be mentioned on one of those pages I don't like to edit. Note the link to an audio recording of the IDF commander assuring a group of settlers that his guys are using live ammo and getting lots of hits. My old man had a 0.22 rifle for shooting rabbits but one day a rabbit looked him right in the eye and he put the rifle away for ever. Zero 06:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Biased The whole article is written based on the Sunni hadith and references. Both, Sunnis and Shias have different view on the Jewish people that was summoned here [47]. All hadith presented in this article are not accepted by the Shia muslims.
Reliable Sources on Antisemitic Verses in Quran Pamella Geller is certainly a reliable source for the opinions of Pamella Geller and the people she represents. She and others consider a number of verses in the Quran to be antisemitic. Those verses are listed. I've added additional references that also view the Quranic verses as antisemitic. It could be disputed that the Quran has antisemitic verses, and certainly there are Muslims who would argue this, and perhaps there should be a subsection under the Quran header that discusses this point of view (provided the section is not original research). Some Muslims would argue that there is no antisemitism in Islam, but that is not the point of this article. Wikipedia should be a source of information. Just because we disagree with a source doesn't make it unreliable. RebSmith (talk) 05:37, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Rebsmith, in your hands the section you have been editing might as well have come directly from Geller's website or from some Islamophobic youtube video. Not the slightest, teeny weeniest attempt to provide balance is evident, just an cherry-picked compilation of sources supporting a particular viewpoint. Have you even looked for Islamic sources which deny the interpretation of those verses? Instead you link to some cleric who nobody ever heard of before the quotes he generously provided. Nishidani's "we could do that too" is not an idle comment; with a little time one could compile a similar list for Christians against Jews, Jews against gentiles, whatever you like. But we won't, because this is not what Wikipedia is about. It simply isn't possible that we will keep this material in the form you have constructed it. Zero 01:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Lets take a look at the material returned here:
In short, that entire edit returned material that violates WP:OR and WP:RS. I'm removing the material on that grounds. nableezy - 18:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
I find it absolutely insane to have an article titled Islam and antisemitism and for editors to refuse to include popular modern-day Muslim sources that hold an anti-Jewish interpretation of the Quran. This interpretation has been discussed in many scholarly works: Bostom, Andrew G. The legacy of Islamic antisemitism: from sacred texts to solemn history. Prometheus Books, 2008. Kramer, Martin. "The Salience of Islamic Antisemitism." Full text of a lecture delivered by Prof. Kramer at the Institute of Jewish Affairs in London and published in its “Reports” series 2 (1995). Webman, Esther. "The Challenge of Assessing Arab/Islamic Antisemitism." Middle Eastern Studies 46.5 (2010): 677-697. Clear, A. "Muslim Anti-Semitism." (2002). Zeidan, David. "The Islamic fundamentalist view of life as a perennial battle." Middle East Review of International Affairs 5.4 (2001): 26-53. My intention was present this interpretation, not with Western academics sources, but with Muslim sources. The article should include this interpretation, as well as the mainstream scholars that rebuke this interpretation. It seems that some Wikipedia editors are engaging in gross censorship of this topic. RebSmith (talk) 22:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but whether you think it is nonsense or not, you are required to provide secondary third party reliable sources for material. What one random cleric says isn't that. And directly quoting from the Quran without secondary sources discussing what you are quoting is a straightforward violation of WP:OR. Quoting from that policy: All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. nableezy - 22:43, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
To do for the Quran section 1) Add subsection on Muslim sources that use Quranic verses to preach tolerance of Jews. 2) In the subsection Western academic analysis of the Quran
RebSmith (talk) 08:54, 16 March 2015 (UTC) Pagination When using books as sources, please provide pages. This may necessitate some work in the Koran verses section as not all verses are mentioned in the two books covered. But note that this is reason for improving the article, not reverting it to 2 days ago.Bkalafut (talk) 21:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
again is a primary source: primary sources mean nothing unless interpreted competently, since, esp. in Hebrew, Christian, and Islamic contexts, they are swathed in exegetical notes, glosses and commentary. To ignore this is to verge on WP:OR. Memri is not a reliable source. See our article:
The lead EJ has done the sensible thing, and locked the article. The lead I wrote however has gone out, when, in the edit-warring, no one, to my awareness, contested it. I have asked EJ to consider its reincorporation as uncontroversial here. If on the other hand, someone did object, or challenged it, and I missed it, please note that here. It's not of course definitive, but it is not, surely, what we were to-and-froing about?Nishidani (talk) 21:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC) The lead I wrote remained untouched, from the moment I posted it. If there is some diff that challenged that lead I can't see it. Nishidani (talk) 22:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
WP:RS, A reminder of its content for those who cite it without apparently reading it
Articles should be based on 'reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. WP:SCHOLARSHIP Many Wikipedia articles rely on scholarly material. When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources. However, some scholarly material may be outdated, in competition with alternative theories, or controversial within the relevant field. Try to cite present scholarly consensus when available, recognizing that this is often absent. Reliable non-academic sources may also be used in articles about scholarly issues, particularly material from high-quality mainstream publications. On articles riven by scholarly disagreements, but amply covered by academic work, there is no place for 'popular commentary'. This is particularly true of inferences and deductions drawn from translations of ancient books.Nishidani (talk) 13:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Muslim Clerics as sources Here are a list of the Muslim Clerics that I used for the anitisemitic interpretation of Quranic verses:
These clerics should be considered reliable sources WP:RS on Anitisemitic (or anti-Jew) interpretation of Quranic verses unless determined otherwise. RebSmith (talk) 00:01, 20 March 2015 (UTC) Ah yes... Nishidani thinks these men are "hillbilly" and their opinions "nonsense" ... lol RebSmith (talk) 00:12, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I've mentioned before in this talk page, but I fully intended to add the opposition of those opinions. I've previously mentioned that I specifically intended to add Hamza Yusuf's opinion on this particular topic [58]. He constantly speaks on it [59]. In addition, the Algerian cleric, Chemseddine el-Djazairi, listed was added to refute the idea that Jews "descended from apes and pigs". An entire sect of Islam, Ahmadi Islam, would vigorously refute the antisemitic perspectives made by the mentioned clerics. RebSmith (talk) 05:43, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
RebSmith (talk) 18:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Yesterday, the following typology of views on the relation between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism was introduced, subsuming widely diverging views on the nature of this relation under the following three headings:
Note that this typology doesn't only constitute WP:OR – it is outright nonsense. Noone would reasonably consider the two (exactly) the same, while everyone would acknowledge that they are not mutually exclusive, and in one way or other interlinked. So all of the personalities cited here would fall in all of the three categories, which however wouldn't clarify their real perspective at all. Also, the reworded heading "Anti-Zionism versus antisemitism" already suggests a non-relation, while the nature of the relation is what the section is all about.
Aside from the “principled” objections to Zionism currently advanced by the left. You have many practical objections often based on fear, confusing the two is not helpful. 1: Could a Jewish state defend itself 2: Could it develop and maintain an economic base. 3: Would diaspora Jews be forced to move to said Jewish state. 4: Would a Jewish state negatively affect diaspora Jews. Still a sore point among Jews in certain career fields such as American and other countries military, security service and foreign policy establishments who feel that their loyalty is questioned.Jonney2000 (talk) 17:04, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
From Talk:Zionism:
Actually, you are wrong. According to the bible, god commanded genocide of several peoples, and of course performed several genocides himself (the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah). Looks like the bible is not a good guide for morality. “WarKosign” 12:39, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
@Drsmoo: thank you for bringing those quotes. They prove my point to certainty. I did the same as you, and searched through the tens of the thousands of texts on the Sefaria Project. In all those texts, these are the only three I could find which use the term homeland or equivalent in the sense we are discussing it here. But I then took it one step further and looked at the Hebrew text. You will find that both Radak's and the Tosafot commentary are very different in Hebrew. Again the inaccuracy of these modern English translations is another example of how Zionism influences Jewish thought subconsciously (again, this is a trait applicable to all religio-/ethnic- nationalisms). As to the early modern Horowitz quote, his mystical writings were and are not representative of mainstream. So a pitiful three out of tens of thousands becomes none. So, I suspect you have stopped finding "quiet corner" laughable. The themes you believe so deeply in are not as deeply embedded as you have been led to think. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:02, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
The phrase "Jewish homeland" is itself a product of revolutionary westphalianism. It's a reassertion of the right to sovereignty over land long controlled by foreign empires. "Israelite" was once synonymous with "Jew", and "Palestinian" was even used to mean "Jew" at times. Only recently has this become controversial.--Monochrome_Monitor 01:31, 14 June 2016 (UTC) [break] 2016 discussion
Unless actual scholarly support can be shown for its inclusion, the "re-" will be removed. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:30, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
The aim of Zionism was to establish something. A statement that the "establishment" was actually a "re-establishment" is not a neutral statement but part of the Zionist argument that they were morally entitled to it. The article should mention this argument, but using it in Wikipedia's voice would be a travesty of NPOV. It would be like using "redeem" instead of "purchase" for land acquisition, which has similar Zionist credentials. Zero 23:14, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
So you found one rabbi, one whom I never heard of and is not part of mainstream Jewish thought. As for going to the US over the Holy Land, I'm not sure how serious you are trying to be. One very major reason why people went to the US was because it was safer and more established. There were people who tried or went to Israel but the community was poorer, the country was poorer and it was not a feasible solution to migrate to. Even so, that never took away aspirations for the homeland, just that it's not feasible at this time. So again, to say that the homeland is a new invention is wrong and starts to approach a point that should not be approached, to delegitimze the Jewish homeland. No matter when and no matter where, Jews pray to return to their homeland. Sir Joseph 20:31, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
@Drsmoo: below is a summary of our discussion on this topic as I see it:
It doesn't matter to me or anyone that your initial attempt to provide proof for your position did not hold water. But giving up the discussion so quickly it just looks like you are running away. Why not show us all the proof if it is so obvious. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:40, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel like the article has pro-Zionist bias, or is it just me?? Shiningroad (talk) 11:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
This article is definitely biased toward Zionism. Every legitimate criticism of Zionism is basically dismissed by referring to various proponents of Zionism who explain away and rationalize the obvious self-contradictions and faults of Zionist ideology, such as its racist underpinnings, it's inherently undemocratic and colonialist nature. There is no real reference to what Zionism has brought about in the real world: the effects of Zionism on the indigenous Palestinian population, the apartheid conditions under which they are living, the brutal confinement and periodic bombardment of Gaza. There should be a whole section devoted to ethno-nationalism in general, of which Zionism is one exemplar, comparing it to other forms of ethno-nationalism. There could also be discussion about how Zionism has come to be accepted while other forms of ethno-nationalism (South African apartheid, Nazism, etc.) are condemned. This article could be improved and made more neutral by adding more perspectives and commentary critical of Zionism. I would suggest including statements about Zionism from Palestinian-American scholar Joseph Massad, from journalist Ali Abunimah, and from Professor Steven Salaita. All of these writers clearly distinguish between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, as do many Jewish writers. Mention should also be given to contemporary Jewish groups like A Jewish Voice for Peace which are actively working to raise American Jewish awareness about the effects of Zionism that run contrary to values of democracy and mutual respect amongst peoples and religions. [User: jasper good] 19:38, 1 Jan 2016 (UTC)
QUOTE: Religious anti-Zionism amongst the Jewish Talmudic Many other Hasidic groups in Jerusalem, most famously the Satmar Hasidim, as well as the larger movement they are part of, the Edah HaChareidis, are strongly anti-Zionist. One of the best known Hasidic opponents of all forms of modern political Zionism was Hungarian rebbe and Talmudic scholar Joel Teitelbaum. In his view, the current State of Israel is contrariwise to Judaism, because it was founded by people who included some anti-religious personalities, and were in apparent violation of the traditional notion that Jews should wait for the Jewish Messiah. 04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)~ Please define "Jewish Talmudic".... This whole thing is like a page out of the Elders of Zion. 96.57.23.82 (talk) 04:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC) It does feel like that, yet on the other hand it is a page about Zionism. I assume you mean it shouldn't be biased toward anything, but Zionism has slightly accomplished it goal, so it only seems to be biased because it does describes the complete actions of Zionism, which are more on the winning side of the coin flip — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.252.209 (talk) 18:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC) "Another less common meaning is the political support for the State of Israel by non-Jews." Could we get a source for this. I feel like it's a endorsing misuse of the word. Supporting Israeli citizens and as a whole the country of Israel does not equal being a Zionist. It's a classification extremists use so as to call people anti-Zionist if they criticize Israeli politics. Should not be on the Wikipedia page if it's such a weak connection with reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.101.38 (talk) 21:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Statement "Opposition to Zionism in principle has also been charged as racist and as fostering the segregation of peoples that should seek peaceful coexistence." I hope this is some kind of joke..Makeandtoss (talk) 21:04, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
Terminology: 'anti-Semitism' vs 'racism' I'm curious about something. When we describe the events in Europe that motivated Zionism, they are labelled anti-Semitic, but not racist. Is there a reason for choosing one over the other? BabyJonas (talk) 18:36, 11 June 2016 (UTC) Ancestral Homeland in wikipedia's neutral voice Please could the various editors who are pushing this please read this chapter:
Such a concept is non-neutral for every nationalism. Zionism is no different. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:02, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
"I am deeply moved by the offer from our State of Israel [to serve as President], and at once saddened and ashamed that I cannot accept it. All my life I have dealt with objective matters, hence I lack both the natural aptitude and the experience to deal properly with people and to exercise official functions. For these reasons alone I should be unsuited to fulfill the duties of that high office, even if advancing age was not making increasing inroads on my strength. I am the more distressed over these circumstances because my relationship to the Jewish people has become my strongest human bond, ever since I became fully aware of our precarious situation among the nations of the world."--Monochrome_Monitor 21:46, 13 June 2016 :::@BowlAndSpoon: If you want to know anything about the ancient origins of the modern Jewish (UTC) people you can begin by reading about Israelites. “WarKosign” 06:52, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
"re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel" and homeland An attempt to summarize the long winded discussions above:
Is my summary missing anything? Oncenawhile (talk) 10:19, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Anyway, I think a good compromise between re-establish and establish, one that recognizes jewish history in the land while not claiming direct lineal connection to that history, is "establishment of a modern jewish homeland" or something akin to that. The wording isn't perfect.--Monochrome_Monitor 04:13, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
"Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel)."--Monochrome_Monitor 21:19, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Again, the nationalist fantasy begins right in the outset. Sovereignty? "It too is a modern invention. … [T]he concept of sovereignty was beyond [medieval jurists …] [T]he appearance of this abstract concept, which relegates the 'sovereign' to the status of a mere servant of the state, signals the emergence of modern political understanding." This is taken from a review in the current edition of the London Review of Books. Again: the very concept of sovereignty did not even exist until the sixteenth century – so how the hell can it have existed thousands of years ago? And so how can this Jewish sovereignty have been reestablished in the 20th century? Just completely absurd. The typical nationalistic fantasies and ignorance on display here are both absolutely stunning and completely tedious. --BowlAndSpoon (talk) 22:34, 15 June 2016 (UTC) You're talking about the westphalian conception of the right to sovereignty. That it not the same thing as nationhood in the sense of an ethnos. The latter is ancient. Anyway, I don't particularly care what you have to say considering your hateful bona fides.--Monochrome_Monitor 00:00, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
The Elephant in the Room The definition of Zionism should per policy come from Zionism's original declared aim. The aim set forth in the foundational document of Zionism, the Basel programme:
It remodulates the Balfour Declaration in the same way. The latter stated the aim was for
So how on earth do we get the odd version on this page, with its 'Land of Israel' and 're-establilshment' jargon? I.e. We have
Where in the official documentation of the Zionist founders does this 're-establishment' phrasing and 'Land of Israel' wording emerge? Nishidani (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
My comment was to engage with one specific line of discussion: The claim that no sources support the idea that Zionism is characterized by re-establishment. Here we have a critical source (Edward Said) who emphatically describes Zionism in these terms. Your point is something else: That we must not write it in Wikipedia's voice. I personally have a similar, but more nuanced view:
BabyJonas (talk) 06:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
From the talk page of user: Bolter21 I'm wondering what you think about my recent edits to Jerusalem. I'm not trying to canvas you, I'm just trying to decide whether it's worth pursuing considering the fact that the article will never be sane and I'm probably getting into edit war territory. (consider "the selectivity required to summarize some 5,000 years of inhabited history is often influenced by ideological bias or background. The periods of Greek sovereignty in the city's history are important to Greek nationalists, who claim the right to the city based on descent from Ancient Greece, of which Athens was the capital. In contrast, Turkish nationalists claim the right to the city based on descent from the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the city until recent times.") That would never happen though since only the jews' capital is controversial. Crazy fucks.--Monochrome_Monitor 04:05, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
"By refusing to allow any right to be defined in similar terms as Jews in Israel, the state that is their adversary, are defined," shows this is an emotionally loaded issue for you. The difference with Jews is that's a common definition of the term. Ideally it would say, or a convert to their religion, Judaism. This is different. The sources are all indirect and it's patently obvious palestinians are not an ethnic group- again, see the template "ethnic groups in palestine".--Monochrome_Monitor 21:21, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
The following was originally written by user 'Monochrome Monitor,' but Nishidani added the links. Nishidan's edit summary was: "Annotating a toddler's version of a copyright violation from the Ministry for Hasbarah: I didn't drop anything about entine. I have always defended him as a source. I have never defended yanover, I agree jewishpress is a crappy source except for info on america's modern orthodox. You think I have no individuality? Your responses are boilerplate anti-israel rhetoric. "Fizzle in the guy", "oppressors", "carpet bombing". It's ridiculous. Calling vietnam genocide is also ridiculous and appalling to people who have known real genocide. (Intent to destroy a people in whole or in part? I think not) 1. The "500 children killed" meme is a figure published by Hamas which includes adolescent fighters. 2.It's ballsy to compare Hamas to jewish rebels against the romans, I'll give you that. 3. Jews in the Bar Kochba revolt were fighting against foreign domination, hamas is fighting against a lawfully imposed blockade implemented because of their belligerence. Israel occupied the territories because they were used to wage war against it, occupied judea to weaken the persian empire. Israel isn't concerned that the rockets will kill massive numbers of people, they have the iron dome for that. They are concerned about the fact that most of their population is hiding in bomb shelters and daily life cannot continue until the barrage stops. Hamas uses unguided missiles that are cheap to produce, the iron dome uses guided missiles that are expensive to produce. As the missiles continue they are losing a lot of time and money, and their population is panicking. You also say that "more palestinians died than israelis". That's not how proportionality works. It's the proportion of civillians (sic) killed to legitimate military objectives accomplished, not one side's deaths to another's deaths. [Israel is defending its country], not expanding it. Gazans live in a modern society despite their lack of high-tech weaponry to kill Israelis. Gaza has luxury cars, iphones, fancy hotels. If you're rich of course, most people live in poverty, but that's class stratification for you. It's asymmetrical war fare. For asymmetrical warfare a 1:1 (israel's figure) or even 2:1 (hamas's figure) civilian:combatant ratio is actually pretty great. Compare it to the afghanistan war's 4:1. You focus on the 'suffering of Gazas (sic)- which I agree is immense, and the feeling that its a great injustice. But think about it. Why would Israel WANT to make gazans suffer? Even assuming they don't care about them at all (as the demonizers say) its a waste of money on expensive munitions and a source of international opprobrium. It is in their interest to minimize civilian casualties. My empathy for suffering is distinct from my conception of justice. Justice is not making sides suffer equally in warfare, or else Germany should have carpet-bombed los angelos like we did dresden.- .--Monochrome_Monitor 19:35, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
And as I said before, I do not think I am a neo-liberal.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:13, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
|
Sub-Section
Community discussion on WP:Expert retention
|
---|
|
Sub-Section
Community discussion on POV pushing of pseudoscience
| ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
From Wikipedia:Village pump:
Statement by A1candidate
Over the past few months, I have bore witness to a recurring pattern of highly inappropriate and uncivil behavior of two longstanding administrators: JzG and Kww. On several unfortunate occasions, I have been at the receiving end of a diverse range of personal attacks, offensive insults, and false accusations thrown against me:
Despite the serious accusations thrown at me by these administrators, I retain a clear conscience, and I am not an advocate of any particular treatment (certainly not in a financial sense). Nevertheless, my best efforts to put an end to these personal attacks against me have so far proved futile. I tried to voice out these issues at WP:AE initially (since the talk pages were under discretionary sanctions), but my good faith attempts to highlight the problem was put down and I was accused of being "disruptive and likely tendentious". It is therefore my hope that this Committee will accept this case and hear me out. It is not my intention to disrupt or game the system, and I do not wish that these longstanding and experienced administrators be unfairly tried. All I hope is that their accusations against me and DrChrissy may finally come to an end. -A1candidate 08:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Would you be willing to reconsider your vote if we modified the scope of this case? Instead of treating this as a strict review of administrative behavior, we could formulate a general consensus statement about how WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA guidelines apply to the topic area of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM). Some suggestions include:
I hope you might give this a second thought. Please do let me know if you have any other suggestions. -A1candidate 11:17, 9 May 2015 (UTC) Statement by JzG Two things stand out from the request.
In passing I would note that even describing it as a content dispute is stretching the definition. Stats for the article Acupuncture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views):
In A1candidate's mainspace contributions, there are a large number of articles on topics aligned to the supplements, complementary and alternative medicine (SCAM) industry. Acupuncture, reiki, TM etc. A1Candidate is clearly positive about these things and edits tend to introduce supportive material ([97] [98], [99], [100]) or remove critical material ([101], [102]). In several cases speculative claims have been asserted as fact in Wikipedia's voice, e.g. [103] which makes a clear implication of a proven mechanism for acupuncture which is inconsistent with the observed fact that sham needling has statistically indistinguishable outcomes. See also Purinergic signalling (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), a WP:COATRACK created by A1candidate to promote a speculative mechanism proposed by advocates of acupuncture. Example: "The anti-nociceptive effect of acupuncture is mediated by the adenosine A1 receptor", stated in Wikipedia's voice, based on sources that are clearly written fomr the perspective of believers (one opens "Acupuncture has been widely used in China for three millennia as an art of healing. Yet, its physiology is not yet understood." Really? Edzard Ernst would (and does) argue that this is simply false, and that the mechanism is understood: placebo effects including the well-documented effect of distraction. Several sources also identify that acupuncture as practiced in ancient times involved instruments that resemble fleams, not modern needles, and characterise modern-day acupuncture as largely a creation of Mao Zedong - and this source actually tacitly acknowledges this by referencing the year 1971, the year of the Nixon visit with its now-debunked demonstration of surgery under anaesthesia by acupuncture, as the start of Western interest in the archaic practice. The main problem is, as it was at the AE which was closed without action and which this request essentially simply reiterates, that I characterise this editing behaviour as advocacy: I do not think that is unfair but A1candidate appears to believe that it is not just unfair, but uncivil - more than that, a personal attack. So the relevant questions of fact are:
From the complaint, if you leave aside the terrible insults I hurled at a bot for repeatedly tagging an uploaded image with a rationale that did not use the correct template, you're left with a request to classify use of the word "advocacy" to describe systematic positive editing and commentary, as a personal attack and inherently uncivil. Guy (Help!) 14:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
@DrChrissy: The word dogma is an excellent one. Acupuncture, like most SCAM practices, is driven by dogma. The dogma says that acupuncture effects are yielded by some special effect gained only by inserting needles. Acupuncture researchers then set about explaining this in terms consistent with dogma. Science asks: doe the observed effects actually demand that needles are inserted? The answer appears to be: No. It doesn't seem to matter where you put the needles, or even if you insert them at all. Acupuncture responds by saying that even placebo acupuncture releases this marvellous magic. That's dogma. Guy (Help!) 15:37, 6 May 2015 (UTC) As pointed out below, A1Candidate made this edit with the summary "format": a POV edit with a wholly misleading edit summary. I think that's quite likely to be enough to invoke existing discretionary sanctions. We may be done here. Guy (Help!) 23:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC) Statement by Kww I stand by my characterisation of A1candidate: he advocates pseudoscience and damages articles related to alternative medicine. The accusation of active deceit came about today: there's no way that "format" described his repeated insertion of material over the objections of other editors or that "restore after extensive discussion" characterises an edit that had failed to gain consensus during that discussion. I think it's getting time to take an Arbcom case over alternative medicine articles in general, and acupuncture, Traditional Chinese medicine and ayurveda in particular. All have become entrenched battlegrounds with advocates of these particular forms of quackery. Ayurveda is under indefinite full protection for the simple reason that our discretionary sanctions aren't working: they attempt to focus only on editor behaviour, but don't take into account that we have a serious problem with fraud here. Acupuncture is even more difficult because there is a legitimate scientific controversy over whether it has any effects, and that glimmer of hope is constantly seized upon as evidence that TCM isn't nonsense. We need to authorize a set of sanctions that allow us to be uneven in our application of remedies, and to be able to immediately and promptly show pseudoscience advocates the door without going through this level of pain. My efforts in this area have only rewarded me with the classification of being involved, something that is bound to occur to any administrator that tries to keep these articles in some kind of factual form.—Kww(talk) 02:15, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Unless the dispute is a serious scientific dispute (not the case with TCM or ayurveda, and only on some points with acupuncture) we are supposed to "dismiss them out of hand in Wikipedia's voice". The misapplication of NPOV that you discuss is the core dispute here. Mysticism is not on par with science, and, as an encyclopedia, we might report what mystics think, but we don't use it in our editorial position.—Kww(talk) 14:08, 5 May 2015 (UTC) Wow, Les, I "deceitfully twisted" material like "many within the field of science view acupuncture as 'quackery' and 'pseudoscience,' and its effect as 'theatrical placebo'" into "Many within the scientific community consider it to be quackery"? It's obvious that I'm not to be trusted.—Kww(talk) 22:39, 5 May 2015 (UTC) Cla68 That simply isn't true: LesVegas repeatedly tries to treat yin and yang as science, and we have numerous editors on ayurveda that try to treat it as a legitimate medical system.—Kww(talk) 01:17, 6 May 2015 (UTC) Salvio Just take a look at John's efforts to enforce discretionary sanctions on ayurveda as an example. By taking a scrupulously content-neutral approach, all his effort has resulted in is a frozen article with edits paralyzed by constant controversy from supporters, and the sanctions are having the side-effect of encouraging and enabling those very supporters that we are trying to keep under control. What we need from Arbcom is a clarification to all admins involved in arbitration enforcement that the intention of discretionary sanctions is to prevent pseudoscience and alt-med advocates from damaging articles, and that they are expected to administer those sanctions with a clear view towards reducing and eliminating pseudoscience and alt-med advocacy. As it stands, too many admins are trying to achieve the false balance that we are attempting to avoid.—Kww(talk) 14:55, 6 May 2015 (UTC) A1candidate: You persistent in identifying the symptom as the problem. If we didn't have a problem with pseudoscience advocacy, we wouldn't have the problem of pseudoscience advocates complaining about the terms people use to refer to them.—Kww(talk) 14:19, 9 May 2015 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved Beyond My Ken: I agree with Kww that it would be beneficial for ArbCom to open a case dealing with acupuncture, Traditional Chinese medicine, ayurveda and other naturopathic practices, but suggest that the case be as broad as possible. A narrowly-focused case will do nothing to reduce the overall friction between believers and those who wish to follow the scientific method as the controlling factor. BMK (talk) 04:28, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
|
Sub-Section
Community discussion on antisemitic & fascist POV pushing
|
---|
From the community discussion of Jews and Communism:
I originally read this as antisemitic -'Jew' and 'Bolshevik' were interchangeable synonyms for some decades at least in Eastern Europe (William Brustein, Roots of Hate: Anti-Semitism in Europe Before the Holocaust,, Cambridge University Press, 2003 p.271)- and feel I should confirm my vote for deletion. DGG’s comments however have made me halt in what is an instinctive judgement, but one also based on several factors. There is a huge sunken history of whisper and prejudice behind this nexus and though the topic is well worth exploring, when every big shot from Hitler to Henry Ford created a cultural meme (Jew+Communism) that fed into the popular imagination over two or three continents with disastrous results, one can only broach the topic with particular caution. A caution lacking in this article. Some background for why I react this way. Howell Arthur Gwynne's The Cause of World Unrest, G. Richards,1920 came out just about the same time as Victor E. Marsden 's version of the Protocols and its thesis pushed the idea that
On p.131 that vicious screed has a list of fifty communists and their pseudonyms and the ‘real’ names (i.e Jewish) of most of them. Even Lenin’s mother is said to be of Jewish origins. This legitimized as a pseudo-documentary proof the kind of rumour-mongering lethally diffused throughout East Europe, well typified by the the following tripe:
and it has a very long history, well studied, and dismantled by scholarship, and hopelessly garbled by the numbers-game theorists of an enduring world conspiracy (now on Wall Street, when its capitalism, and once re Communism, Capitalism's antithesis. The Jews are everywhere, and always to blame. That background compels anyone interested in the topic to write it with a detachment, clarity and comprehensiveness that are wholly absent here. This article seems to be a WP:SYNTH list of Jews associated with Bolshevism that has utterly failed to provide either a narrative framework or a meaningful summary of the story.
That kind of thing must be contextualized to make it meaningful. I.e. In the 1927 census, Jews constituted 4.34% of the 1,131,250 members of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. The slightly higher numbers in the upper echelons is wholly predictable from the fact that Jews constituted a notable part of the educated technocratic elites of most East European countries, and had an overpowering reason to put an end to 2,000 years of antisemitism through some utopian vision that promised to put an end to conflict itself for everyone (Trotsky's point:'The Jewish question, I repeat, is indissolubly bound up with the complete emancipation of humanity'.)
This is a palmary example of source manipulation: Draper is reported in the source as estimating that “perhaps as much as 15 percent of the party membership was Jewish,”(p.233). This also illustrates how topical googling without studying each point in extenso leads to the POV push in this article. Thus Harvey Klehr, Communist Cadre: The Social Background of the American Communist Party Elite, Hoover Press, 1978 pp.37-52 has a very nuanced statistically-based chronological analysis of Jewish representation n the party and its directive elite, showing considerable fluxes in representation. Whatever, it should have been pointed out that in contrast to the thesis made for the Russian section, Jews were not overwhelmingly represented among the founders of the American Communist Party.
Yet both Trotsky and Zinoviev came from land-holding farming families, and Jews were permitted by ukase since 1804 to purchase and work agricultural land. The ‘normalization’ attributed to Communism overlooks the fact that Jewish farming cooperatives had been actives throughout part of the empire for more than a century.
Well, all three of them were shot by the orthodox(Stalinist) Communist regime, and no note is taken of that. To the contrary we have an emphasis on the idea that ‘the majority of Jews were not affected by the Great Terror’ and ‘By early 1939, the Jewish proportion of people in the Gulag was "about 15.7 percent lower than their share of the total population.’ I hear in this the idea that the Jews created Communism and were saved from its savageries, an innuendo the authors fail to blunt by pointing out that not only Sokolnikov, Zinoviev and Trotsky were bumped off, but also numerous other senior Jewish/Old Bolsheviks like Lev Kamenev and Karl Radek (not to speak of the huge loss created by the murders of the greatest Russian poet of the 20th century Osip Mandelshtam or a writer of genius like Isaak Babel. There is nothing here either of the key fact that the internal critique of the Stalinist turn came from a notable number of Jewish dissidents, and they paid for it with their lives.
Note here that there were Jewish Russians, Jewish Poles, Jewish Balts, Jewish Georgians.
---Action following deletion and/or as well as deletion--- [copied to talk page, as discussed] Follow this link [126] USchick (talk) 21:10, 13 May 2014 (UTC) ---Proposed topic ban for 2 editors--- The article Jews and Communism is currently going through a second nomination for deletion. After several ANI incidents and lots of discussion, two editors stand out as being extremely disruptive to the Wikipedia community. Instead of rehashing the arguments here, I would like to nominate two editors for a topic ban. WP:TBAN I'm asking for community consensus from involved editors to determine whether a topic ban for one or both editors is appropriate action. Comments from the community are welcome. USchick (talk) 17:48, 13 May 2014 (UTC) Background Recent threads at AN/I: [127] and [128]. Discussion at Jimbo: [129].
Proposed bans for topics on Jews and Communism ---First nominee--- User:Potočnik - Previously named Producer. Original creator of the article Jews and Communism
---Second nominee--- User:Director - Blindly supported Producer and now changed his mind. Has a history of disruptive editing.
---Additional discussion--- First, I think you should be looking for feedback from uninvolved editors. Secondly, if you want to hear from the Wikipedia community, WP:AN/I is a better forum for this than WP:AN. You will also need to present diffs outlining specific acts of disruption. Liz 17:58, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Summary: Jews and Communism was adapted in late February 2014 by User:Potočnik, then known as Producer, from an article found on the site of a Holocaust denier. Producer and Director worked tirelessly and in concert to avoid changes to the article, almost invariably adopting a combative and threatening tone in Talk and edit comments. Despite its very evident problems, its rancid anti-Semitism, and the discussion at Jimbo, the article survived a March 2014 AfD as No Consensus. The article is again at AfD, where many thousands of words have been expended and where the article has attracted negligible support after the revelation of its roots. Director changed his position from Strong Keep to Delete; Potocnik has been silent. The Problem: Literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of volunteer hours have been spent, and tens -- perhaps hundreds -- of thousands of words have been written, in order to keep a vitriolically anti-Semitic attack page off Wikipedia, or at least to reduce the worst aspects of that page. This is a terrible waste. It is clear that two or three dedicated and sophisticated editors, working together and cooperating closely, can tie the project in knots. This page would have been terribly embarrassing to the project if it had received wider media attention but it was also a comparatively easy call; we may not be as lucky in the future. The community needs a forum to consider and address the problems this episode so clearly presents. There will always be anti-Semites and zealots and conspiracy theorists and fanatics eager to spread The Word and capable of "following the sources" to cram racism, anti-semitism, fringe science, and fanaticism into Wikipedia, and where just two or three are gathered together they are extremely difficult or impossible to oppose. We have strong policies against socks, but two or three coordinated ideologues can assume ownership of a page and do nearly anything provided they take care to cherry-pick sources and avoid concerted opposition. If Wikipedia does not address this problem, it will have no future. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
I could write an entire essay here about the highly inappropriate behavior of a large number of editors on that article, the flaming, the accusations of antisemitism, the incessant use of edit-warring as a substitute for discussion, the accusations of sockpuppetry, etc, etc.. But I won't. #1 because the article is being deleted and this is a dead issue, #2 because I just now went away on business and hace nothing but my phone, and #3 because I don't care, tbh. To single out Producer and me for sanctions, imo, defies all logic. The article did turn out to be based in part on some IHR essay - but nobody knew that at that time. I didn't; and the sources checked out. When the IHR thing was revealed, I immediately supported deletion and repeatedly apologized to everyone. If someone wishes to "take revenge" for my defending the article, fine, I won't offer any kind of detailed defense. -- Director (talk) 19:31, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Additional examples:
I'm confused - what is being asked for here, a topic ban from the intersection of the subjects "Jews" and "Communism", i.e. everything to do with the relationship between Jews and Communism; or a ban from the combination of those two subjects, i.e. everything to do with Jews and everything to do with Communism? BMK (talk) 23:32, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
I find the call for involved editors to reach a determination on this strange and unusual. A TBAN needs to be determined by the community at large whether involved or univolved. Sure, AN discussions are typically led by the involved, but that's something different. I tend to agree with BMK that it sounds like a partisan call to their enemies at the AfD.
I feel I need to state a few things: This pdf that is being persistently pushed is by some individual named "Valdas Anelauskas" and titled "Zionism and Russia" and readily available on Archive.org alongside thousands of other works by various authors. In any event I did not know that reliable sources are absolutely off limits if they've happened to have been quoted elsewhere by less reputable sources. For what it's worth my interest on the subject was piqued by Stanford University's "Jews and Communism" publication (hence the article name), later Slezkine, and more later by other sources. All that being said this article and this area of Wikipedia has put out such a toxic environment with its nonstop drama that, regardless of the outcome above, I'm willfully barring myself from editing in it ever again. I had been contemplating retiring from Wikipedia for a while now even prior to this whole ordeal and have chosen to follow through with it and do so. Therefore I am retiring indefinitely and am ceasing all further editing on any portion of Wikipedia. This my final and only comment on the matter and on Wikipedia. --Potočnik (talk) 10:49, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I still fail to see the supposed "animosity" that Peacemaker67 and Antidiskriminator speak of. Where has any any one on here expressed any strong hostility towards director? Just because I have an editing history on the afD page for Jews and Communism, one of the several articles in question, my opinion becomes invalid? My first direct interaction with Director happened after the creation of this topic ban proposal, so how could I have had a "vendetta" against Director? In fact, at this point, I don't even agree with the nominator in regard to giving Director a topic ban, only Potocnik. The notion that an editor has to be entirely clueless of a situation when he joins the discussion associated with it in order to have a valued opinion makes no sense. Flipandflopped (Discuss, Contribs) 15:05, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
To User Potocnik @ 10:49, 14 May 2014 (UTC) above. Sorry to see you go. Somehow I suspect it is just a case of a "broken-wing defense". Time will tell. You know, whenever I see you or Director edit or opine during this entire laborious labyrinthine byzantine Jews & Communism discussion, the words of an English poet I studied many decades ago come to mind:
Based on the unyielding ongoing self-righteous defenses you and Director offer up all the time, evidently you fail to grasp the profound import and implications of what the words "...A truth that’s told with bad intent Beats all the Lies you can invent!" mean. If you would, or could, then none of this horrendous and divisive debate would be necessary as the discussion would stop being one of "chalk and cheese" as the two of you try making it all about "sources" when the real problem is one of the core underlying negative and malicious intent of the way it's set up that comes across based on its presentation and your torrid defenses of what is ultimately indefensible. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:24, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
---Systemic failure to provide oversight in this case--- The article "Jews and Communism" was created, as we know now, using material from an extremist anti-Semitic website as a source without attribution. Two days after its creation, it was nominated for deletion but the result was "no consensus"[190]. I find it disturbing that closing admin RoySmith says in his closure that one of the charges against the article is that it is "Attack page (anti-semetic)" but does not address that in his remarks, saying "what this really comes down to, is this a POV fork of Jewish Bolshevism?" and the answer is that there is no consensus, so he allowed this very clearly anti-Semitic attack page to continue to be promulgated on this site. Then there was a deletion review, closed by Sandstein as "no consensus" [191], again, the very clear anti-Semitic content did not seem to be disturbing any admins or oversighters on this site. A long AN/I started by Director [[192] with the stated aim of removing "those folks who hang around being disruptive obstructions" from the article and which developed into a discussion of his behaviour, was eventually closed by v/r as "no consensus". "No consensus, no consensus, no consensus, not to become an anti-Semitic website, go away and leave us alone, and don't edit war or call each other names or you will be expelled from school for a day or two." I must say I was very disappointed that Jimbo Wales, in the discussion on his talk page, said he would look at the article and give his opinion, but he never did, and the discussion was archived with no further comment from him [193]. All this did attract the attention of two admins who honourably did try to intervene and improved things a little,Jehochman and Stephan Schulz, but what were all the rest of you doing? Another AN/I I started about edit-warring [[194] was also just ignored by admins for days and days until it was closed by Spike Wilbury as, guess what, "no consensus" [195], but at least he did then step into the article talk page and try to do something. Maybe because I know a little about early 20th century Russia, that stuff in the article about Jews killing the Tsar immediately indicated to me that this was as clearly pushing extreme anti-Semitism as if there were an article on WP about the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" saying that it shows a Jewish plot to take over the world. I said so over and over but no one in authority seemed to take any notice, you would have hoped that someone might have looked into it. I am the person who found the connection between the article on the white supremacist website and the original WP article, and it really wasn't that hard,all I had to do was google the quote about "Jewish violins" killing the Tsar and there it was. All these bureaucratic procedures, lists of rules, blah blah blah, should not have prevented somebody doing something to remove poisonous racist crap from this website but the people who could have done that seem to be timid and afraid of doing anything and wait for someone else to deal with it or for it to "go to ArbCom", oh yes, spend five months collecting "evidence" and going through infinite quasi-legal hoops. The article is still onsite, though at least without the horrible "Jews killed the Tsar" stuff. Please excuse the rant, I needed to get that off my chest, it can be hatted if someone wants to do that.Smeat75 (talk) 12:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC) Smeat75 identifies the central issue in this matter: Can Wikipedia resist concerted efforts to contaminate it with lies, hate, and deception? In the time from February through May 2014, it signally failed to do so. The virulent anti-Semitism of the original article should have been evident to all, and much of it persists to this day despite the efforts of literally dozens of editors and the investment of hundreds of hours. The attention of administrators, and indeed of Wikimedia board members, should have been focused by the original AfD, the Jimbo discussion, the two long, long threads at AN/I, and plenty of direct correspondence. This was not an obscure or difficult issue requiring expertise, some dispute about mathematical series or the best name for some forgotten Balkan outpost. The article was filled with evident canards -- and it linked to a fairly extensive Wikipedia article filling in the historical background on the smear! We have the whole cast: the ugly Jews, the Jews in banking and finance, the secretive Jews, the Jewish traitors. We argue that all sorts of people were really Jews because their ancestors were Jewish. And on the talk page, as here, we have the repeated dismissal of opposition because, after all, it's just those Jews again coming to WP:VOTE, and everyone knows how they stick together. Wikipedia is in serious trouble. It is hemorrhaging editors. Its reputation is already low, and scandals like this page diminish it. Worse, it seems clear that Wikipedia cannot and will not resist serious efforts by a small team of concerted editors who, as was the case here, can easily override policy and consensus by pretending to adhere to the forms. I've used Wikis since Ward’s Wiki was new; I've been keynote at WikiSym and I've been program chair; I’ve written wikis. Never -- not even during the great wiki mind wipe of 1999 -- have I so completely doubted the efficacy of the WikiWay. The conclusion seems inescapable that Wikipedians have lost the ability to distinguish routine contention from opposition to racist and anti-semitic distortion; if we cannot do that (and I see scant evidence that we can), the wind will blow through the empty corridors of Wikipedia? Could it happen? If you think not, think again. Events like Jews and Communism bring Wikipedia into disrepute. If Wikipedia becomes sufficiently disreputable, an engineer at Google can press a button and, overnight, Wikipedia could go back to Page Rank 3, taking our traffic. If Wikipedia becomes sufficiently disreputable, donations will dry up. If Wikipedia becomes sufficiently disreputable, the remaining editors will be even more dominated by the hacks and the charlatans, the zealots for obscure movements, the gamified WikiLawyers looking for one more scalp and one more barnstar. This can still be fixed, but it can not be fixed by kicking the can down the road and nodding sagely that, if the anti-semites were regrettable, some of their opponents were sometimes intemperate. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:25, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
---Involved / uninvolved editors---
@Balaenoptera, that's pretty much everyone. I don't agree with that. I'd rather go for the second AfD since the point of having "uninvolved" editor input is that those editors haven't been advocating content changes and hence are more objective in viewing behavior as such. -- Director (talk) 19:00, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
---Tactical Remorse--- Above, Director writes:
This false equivalence (and this personal attack) should make clear to any reader that Director's remorse is merely a tactic. Once again, Producer and Director are working in apparent concert here: Producer retiring in silence while Director is shocked -- shocked! -- to discover that he has been defending anti-semitic cant. Note, too, how even now Director stands by his "reliable non-cherry-picked" sources; the only thing wrong with the ghastly article, and with his staunch defense of every insinuation, distortion, and lie it contained, is that it was also plagiarized. Those, like myself, who wish to preserve NPOV are "biased POV pushers" and attempts to remove specious arguments to balance the article are "disrupting". Director sees only the technical violation -- the indefensible plagiarism -- and is expressly prepared to do it all over again. He doesn't, even now, regret the faults of the article; he regrets getting caught in a WP:Copyvio that makes it harder for him to defend it right now. Note, too, that once more Director chooses to single out an editor he thinks to be Jewish, claims to be deeply wronged ("personal attack and slander of the highest order"!) and emphasizes the collective danger of plural "POV-pushers deliberately disrupting the article", which he intends to be heard as a reference to "other editors" by admins but which will be understood as an allusion to "the International Conspiracy Of The Jews" by certain other parties [198]. And once again he threatens editors with reports, trials, sanctions. If he were I, I bet he'd point to the word "slander" above and escalate WP:NLT immediately. After all, how could Director be expected to know the anti-semitic leanings of an article he didn't write? How could the admins be expected to know? Perhaps by reading it? Director is correct to observe that one difference between him and me (and almost everyone else!) in this matter is that he has been wrong, and in the wrong. Director hopes that this very limited display of remorse will save his Wikipedia account, and with it some time, inconvenience, and some small residual influence. The effort is clumsy: thorough contrition would have cost him nothing, but clearly he cannot stomach that. Whether Producer will be rejoining him here under the same name, under a new name, or whether the two were ever distinguishable, is an interesting question to which it seems unlikely we shall ever learn an answer. Once more, two editors acting in close cooperation are poised to emerge from this shameful and costly disaster with scant effective sanction. What damage could editors this dedicated wreak if they thought things though? Director and Producer act in such tight concert that they seem to be socks; more clever operatives would adopt more distinct personae who sometimes agreed, sometimes differed, and who had distinct interests. More resourceful operatives would recruit a parcel of agents to work with them from distant locations -- a few people in Bangalore, a few in Russia, perhaps a small office in Ireland -- each editing quietly and each prepared to chime in when needed at AN/I or Arbcom or AfD to back them up. Smarter operatives would choose a cause (or perhaps a client?) less hideous. Two zealots pursuing a lost and discredited crusade have tied Wikipedia in knots; what couldn't a sensible and unscrupulous PR team with achieve with a few dozen internet accounts and a few thousand dollars? MarkBernstein (talk) 14:23, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
---From the talk page of Jimbo Wales--- You will likely recall a discussion here, not long ago, about the notorious page Jews and Communism. At that time, you said you would look into the issue, but it appears the press of other matters prevented that. The page is now at AfD for the second time [199], and it appears likely that this embarrassment will at last be removed. There remains the very serious question: how did a handful of zealous editors insert and support a patently anti-Semitic canard in Wikipedia, maintaining it for three months through the extensive discussion on your talk page, a previous AfD, two trips to AN/I, and thousands upon thousands of words of acerbic talk page discussion? In my opinion, this strikes to the core of Wikipedia: if a small group of skilled editors can maintain a conspicuous anti-Semitic propaganda page, what cannot be inserted? And if so, who will support or trust Wikipedia? I have written further comments at AN: [200]. If you have an opinion on this matter, I think this is an ideal time to express it. I sincerely believe this crisis to be a serious threat to the future of the project. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:47, 14 May 2014 (UTC) I was actually going to raise the issue myself, as I was the one who brought it here originally. When I read the article for the first time, I s--t a brick and said to myself "This just can't be. How did this garbage get into Wikipedia?" It read like a propaganda screed. It turns out that indeed much of it was originally copied from an anti-Semitic website, and the article itself was copied over to Metapedia. But I was going to raise the issue differently than Mark is, as an example of the Wikipedia processes working. It did take a bit of prodding, but they do seem to be working, and the article seems to be heading for a SNOW deletion. Frankly, being the superstitious sort, I was going to wait until it was actually deleted before coming here to talk about it. Overall, this article gives me a good feeling about Wikipedia. But yes, Mark is right, some reflection is warranted about how it got here and how the system failed to immediately pick up on it. I guess the reason is that the system is us. Coretheapple (talk) 19:18, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
|
Sub-Section
Additional community discussion of pseudoscientific POV pushing and WP: Citation shotgunning
|
---|
The following is a classic example of WP: Citation shotgunning, Proof by intimidation and Ad nauseam. From the community discussion on the Talk page of Homeopathy: To satisfy WP:MEDRS, I think we can find some good studies from the German and French wikipedias, let me start with these:- Jacobs J, Jonas WB, Jimenez-Perez M, Crothers D, Homeopathy for Childhood Diarrhea: Combined Results and Metaanalysis from Three Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trials, Pediatr Infect Dis J, 2003;22:229-34. This metaanalysis of 242 children showed a highly significant result in the duration of childhood diarrhea (P=0.008). A 4th trial testing a “homeopathic formula” had a negative result. Linde L, Clausius N, Ramirez G, et al., "Are the Clinical Effects of Homoeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials," Lancet, September 20, 1997, 350:834-843. (Although a later review by some of these authors found a reduced significance, the authors never asserted that the significance was no longer present.) Frass, M, Dielacher, C, Linkesch, M, et al. Influence of potassium dichromate on tracheal secretions in critically ill patients, Chest, March, 2005;127:936-941. Published in the leading journal on respiratory medicine, this study shows remarkable results in treating the #4 reason that people in the USA die. Conducted at the University of Vienna Hospital. Bell IR, Lewis II DA, Brooks AJ, et al. Improved clinical status in fibromyalgia patients treated with individualized homeopathic remedies versus placebo, Rheumatology. 2004:1111-5. Published in the leading journal on its subject, this study showed clinically relevant improvements from homeopathy as well as influences on objective EEG readings. Frei H, Everts R, von Ammon K, Kaufmann F, Walther D, Hsu-Schmitz SF, Collenberg M, Fuhrer K, Hassink R, Steinlin M, Thurneysen A. Homeopathic treatment of children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: a randomised, double blind, placebo controlled crossover trial. Eur J Pediatr. 2005 Dec;164(12):758-67. Epub 2005 Jul 27. This highly sophisticated trial showed significant results from homeopathic treatment.—Khabboos (talk) 20:15, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
AUTHORS:WOLSCHNER U., STRÖSSER W., WEISER M., KLEIN P. TITLE:Vertigo therapy: Cocculus -Heel versus Dimenhydrinate. PUBLISHED IN: Biologische Medizin,2001, 4. AUTHORS:KÜSTERMANN R.W., WEISER M., KLEIN P. TITLE:Antihomotoxic treatment of conjunctivitis. Results of a prospective, controlled, cohort study. PUBLISHED IN:Biologische Medizin,2001, 3. AUTHOR:BONONI M. TITLE:Echinacea comp. Forte S in the prophylaxis of post-operative infections. A comparative study versus ceftazidime and ceftriaxone. PUBLISHED IN:La Medicina Biologica,2001/1; 17:22. AUTHORS:MARONNA U., WEISER M., KLEIN P. TITLE:Oral treatment of osteoarthritis of the knee with Zeel S tablets. PUBLISHED IN:Orthopädische Praxis,2000, 5. La Medicina Biologica,1999 /4; 74. AUTHOR:ARRIGHI A. TITLE:Evaluation of clinical efficacy in a homotoxicologic protocol for prevention of recurrent respiratory infections in pediatrics. PUBLISHED IN: La Medicina Biologica,2000/3; 13:21. AUTHOR:WEISER M. TITLE:Homeopathic vs. conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study. PUBLISHED IN: Archives of Otolaryngology – Head and Neck Surgery (American Medical Association), 1998, August. AUTHORS:WEISER M., GEGENHEIMER L.H., KLEIN P. TITLE:A randomized equivalence trial comparing the efficacy and safety of Luffa comp.-Heel nasal spray with sodium cromoglycate spray in the treatment of seasonal allergic rhinitis. PUBLISHED IN: Research in Complementary Medicine,1999/6. AUTHORS:NAHLER G., METELMANN H., SPERBER H. TITLE:Treatment of osteoarthritis of the knee with a homeopathic medicine – Results of a randomized, controlled, clinical trial in comparison to hyaluronic acid. PUBLISHED IN:Orthopädische Praxis,1996, 5. PUBLISHED:Biomedical Therapy 1998;16(2):186-191 Kleijnen J, Knipschild P, ter Riet G (1991). Clinical trials of homoeopathy British Medical Journal, 302:316–323. Mathie RT et al. Randomised controlled trials of homeopathy in humans: characterising the research journal literature for systematic review. Homeopathy (2013) 102, 3-24
—Khabboos (talk) 15:06, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
http://www.homeopathyoz.org/images/news/Open_response_letter_by_AHA_to_NHMRC.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarioMarco2009 (talk • contribs) 03:16, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
To state that "homeopathy is effective for some conditions" would require a systematic review that said, without reservation, that "homeopathy is effective for some conditions". If the only sources which say it is effective are ones that also, in their own words, say there are significant problems with the research, then we haven't met the burden required to overturn our existing and extensive sourcing which unequivocally says otherwise. — Jess· Δ♥ 20:11, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Devoting several sentences to every study ever performed would overwhelm the article. We are under no obligation to do that. This study agrees with what the article already says, so "adding it" would either 1) leave the article unchanged, or 2) incorrectly summarize the study. — Jess· Δ♥ 17:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Systematic reviews and meta-analyses of efficacy - request for clarification The following statement found in this section may need to be clarified or rewritten:
I would think that should read "any result NOT consistent with the null hypothesis should be assumed to be a false positive", since results which are consistent with the null hypothesis are not positive results and therefore can't be false positive results. There may be a better way still to word that statement, or I may be reading it wrong. - Puddin'head 24.9.79.14 (talk) 03:25, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Ijon Tichy note: Please see WP: Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. The claim that homeopathy is efficacious is highly exceptional. |
Sub-Section
Further community discussion on pseudohistorical and Pseudoscientific POV-pushing
|
---|
From the talk page of Jimbo Wales: I notice some article talk pages and user talk pages contain some derogatory comments directed at "right wing spin" on the topic. I think it is relevant to point out that socialist, secular, formally atheist countries killed more people in the 20th century than all other types of government combined. So laughing off cultural marxism as a baseless myth seems a bit premature. See also Mass killings under Communist_regimes.
My point is just that, given all the damage done by Marxist governments in the 20th century, I'm not convinced concerns about the state-ownership ideology known as Socialism/Marxism are overblown. Hundreds of millions died in under a century from this secular ideology, and for all the criticism religion gets, it's never racked up those kinds of death tolls so rapidly. --7157.118.25a (talk) 03:25, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
As pointed out by Jonah Goldberg in the aforementioned National Review article, Gregor Strasser, a ranking Nazi, stated:
"We are socialists. We are enemies, deadly enemies, of today’s capitalist economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, its unfair wage system, its immoral way of judging the worth of human beings in terms of their wealth and their money, instead of their responsibility and their performance, and we are determined to destroy this system whatever happens!"[210] Trying to write off the clear identification of the Nazi Party as socialist, despite their anti-capitalist rhetoric, comes across as moving the goalposts. --7157.118.25a (talk) 06:24, 20 January 2015 (UTC) Adolf Hitler by the way is on record as speaking similarly according to Wikiquote. "We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." Adolf Hitler, In a speech (1 May 1927), as quoted in Adolf Hitler : The Definitive Biography (1976) by John Toland[211] --7157.118.25a (talk) 06:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
You make it sound like the left has no conspiracy theories of their own. Leaving aside the 9/11 truthers, there have been the following:
I could keep going, but my point is that the left has plenty of conspiracy theories of their own that are easily debunked from historical analysis. --7157.118.25a (talk) 21:18, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Please can we have some more about The Da Vinci Code as a conspiracy theory. I was enjoying that bit. I think a similar case can be made for Toy Story 3. Formerip (talk) 23:48, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Why did Americans in the 1960s fear the spread of communism in Vietnam? Would communism in Vietnam affect economic life in the United States? 84.13.154.250 (talk) 16:01, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
μηδείς, I'd recommend reading the question more carefully before you answer. It clearly says "the 1960s," and as I'm sure you know, Pol Pot, the Vietnamese boat people, etc. were not of that decade. DOR (HK) (talk) 04:28, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
The so-called "communist" Soviet Union, China, North Korea and almost all other "communist" or "socialist" countries were/are to Marx's or Peter Kropotkin' vision of communism like The Discovery Channel is to science, like Fox News is to news/ facts/ knowledge/ journalism/ insights/ information, like Hitler’s National Socialist German Workers’ Party – the Nazi Party – was to socialism, like military music is to music, like MTV is to music, like The History Channel is to history. ("At the end of the day, we're not an education resource. We're an entertainment brand." Nancy Dubuc, CEO, A+E Networks, speaking about the A+E Networks’ subsidiary The History Channel. From: Felix Gilette, "The Duck Whisperer," Bloomberg Businessweek, June 24-June 30, 2013. p. 72. And see Satirist Lee Camp ridiculing the History Channel.) All of these businesses corrupt the truth (art or facts/ information/ evidence/ data) and deform it into a commercial venture devoid of artistic or factual integrity. IjonTichy (talk) 20:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC) |
Sub-Section
Brilliant analysis from user:gngu
|
---|
From Talk: Land grabbing: This article seems to have serious neutrality problems. As far as I can tell, any purchase of - or investment in - land is framed as a "land grab". This makes it an absurd polemic. Even the title is wildly non-neutral considering the rather prosaic matter of investment in land as food prices go up... bobrayner (talk) 12:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
|
Sub-Section
Hi, just wanted to take this off the article Talk page. When you were arguing to expand the back-and-forth of opinion over the paradigm trial, I was guessing that you had an axe to grind, since that is typically the motivation for such discussions. And indeed when you wrote this and then this, you made it clear that: a) you see mainstream scientific publishing as corrupt; and b) your goal here in WP is to teach readers how to see through the corruption; c) mainly by generating content based on editorial/commentary sources that you select on your own authority, that expose the corruption. This whole string of logic is a POV and your certainty about it has no place here - and it being a WP:FRINGE POV at that (fringe, by definition, since it rejects mainstream scientific publishing as corrupt) -- is going to make life hard for you here in WP. As I mentioned on the Talk page, I suggest you check that POV at the login page. good luck. Jytdog (talk) 13:13, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
you want X and I want Y. i will humor you. It is absolutely true that scientific publications are an essential means for companies bringing new products to market, to communicate to their relevant stakeholders (which include doctors and payors) what their products do, good and bad. If early results for CAR-T being developed by Juno, Novartis, and others hold up in phase III trials, we will find out about it from scientific publications. Is that process open to manipulation? Sure. Do academic scientists try to win their next grant by spinning their data when they publish? heck yes. (and btw, bench science in industry is generally more rigorous than it is in academia; which i acknowledge is a different story from publication of clinical trial results) do talking heads make money and draw eyeballs (in other words, make money) by making strong claims this way or that way? heck yes. pretty much everybody except regulators has something at stake. Are any one of those voices (each with many individual voices within it) corrupt? That is a fringe POV. and in the midst of all that messy human pursuit of self-interest, we somehow get by. imagine that. but again, none of that has anything to do with MEDRS and your effort to import all that mess into WP is not what we do here. That is what I want - that we do WP's work, here in WP. maybe you will humor me. Jytdog (talk) 03:40, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Real life editing question: So, this edit was made a few minutes ago. I know what I would do with it but held back, to come and talk with you about it. What would you do? Let's see just how much we are on the same page or not, on an edit neither of us originated, shall we? Jytdog (talk) 17:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
|
Sub-Section
Great tutorials from User: Nbauman and User: Nishidani on writing WP articles
|
---|
Insights by Nishidani on the Difference Between Great WP Editors (more generally, great workers anywhere in real life/ the real world) and Mediocre Ones: User:AnotherNewAccount wrote the following: "I believe Debresser is right in claiming that Nableezy and Nishidani frequently edit in concert, with Nishidani providing the "brains" and Nableezy the "brawn" in bludgeoning their POV into articles." Nishidani here. That's quite offensive, not only because it is utterly false but because I reckon I could whup Nableezy in a fight, but he'd run rings around me on a huge range of complex technical subjects. The editors you do not like (you call them 'the gang of four') are still here because they are rule-abiding, and accept fairly strict standards for encyclopedic composition, as do the several 'pro-Israel' stalwarts one could also name. There are over a dozen such editors from both sides who regularly edit the same pages, respect each other because they all adhere to the rules, disagree often, talk policy, ask for evidence, marshall sources, analyse their merits and achieve rational outcomes. In contrast, the people who end up here at this Administrator’s Noticeboard (WP: Arbitration/ Requests/ Enforcement) do so because they come with one topic in their sights, understand one POV exclusively, use poor sources, don't discuss on article talk pages or do so erratically, and as often as not ignore the constraints (WP policies, rules and guidelines) we all accept. The people who get into trouble on AN (Administrators’ Noticeboards) or AE (Arbitration Enforcement) for Israel-Palestine-Arab (IPA) issues have one characteristic in common. They are unwilling to do the type of unsexy, intensive legwork, the time-consuming research, on which solid article construction is based. They have nothing but a focus on those elements of a long article which can be spun to political advantage. -- Nishidani (talk) 19:57, 12 August 2016 (UTC) Nishidani here. Sir Joe wrote, again, the same insinuation (it's repeated in every thread): “... this area is "off limits" either due to the headache or bias ...” Nishidani here. The area is not difficult to edit if your contributions are compliant with Wikipedia policies/ rules, and if you have a genuine interest in history, feel uncomfortable with broadbrush simplistic generalizations, and are willing to work hard. Most editors who stay on, do not find it a headache. It demands a lot of work, that's all. The only headache is the historically attested fact that the Israel/ Palestine/ Arab area tends to attract numerous meatpuppets, sockpuppets, posters who make death threats, anonymous blankers and reverters, ranters flooding one's email with vicious slurs, people who game the system, and battlers. They have no bias of course, though they account for 90% of the A/E and A/I noticeboard complaints. They are certainly not 'pro-Palestinian', a silly designation which is used as if it meant 'anti Israeli'. That you do not find in articles here what you find in partisan tabloids is not necessarily a token of bias. The same rude impression will arise if you read any good academic source or encyclopedia. It might just mean that editors who make contributions that stick, because the RS quality is high, work harder than the meme-replicators out there in examining all the available documentation, and writing it up per WP:DUE and WP:NPOV. That said, I have no objection if this suspicion is thought serious enough to warrant a close examination of the editing history and contributions of all to see if they are contributing content or just here to play politics. -- Nishidani (talk) 21:18, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Criticism of one-sided preferences usually cut both ways. Salon tries to provide an alternative news outlet without the usual slanted corporate control. Salon has limited resources. The Salon article above is written by Sophia A. McClennen, Professor of International Affairs and Comparative Literature at the Pennsylvania State University. That should also be relevant. David A (talk) 13:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC) This NYT article should settle the question of whether the views of critics belong in this entry. The answer is "yes." I think that every major newspaper -- NYT, Los Angles Times, Washington Post, etc. -- has had a story now about the critics. That means it should get significant WP:WEIGHT. ‘American Sniper’ Fuels a War on the Home Front, By CARA BUCKLEY, JAN. 28, 2015 Meanwhile, the left started its own pile-on. Bill Maher said the film was about a “psychopathic patriot.” Chris Hedges, a columnist for TruthDig and a former reporter for The New York Times, argued in an essay with an incendiary title that Mr. Kyle “was able to cling to childish myth rather than examine the darkness of his own soul and his contribution to the war crimes we carried out in Iraq.” In a TV interview, Noam Chomsky noted that Mr. Kyle wrote in his memoir that he was fighting “savage despicable evil.” Mr. Chomsky added that “we’re all tarred with the same brush” for largely keeping silent about official policy and the country’s global drone assassination campaign. The Chris Hedges essay, BTW, is [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/killing_ragheads_for_jesus_20150125 Killing Ragheads for Jesus] which is quoted above. I think Chris Hedges gives a good statement of the critics' view. I think the Criticism section should be a coherent summary of the ideas behind the critics, in full sentences, rather than a collection of snippets. It seems to be getting a little better. If I were writing it from a blank page, I would summarize Zaid Jilani's list of "lies" and Chris Hedges' introductory lead. That would give the readers a good idea of what the controversy is all about. This is an encyclopedia entry, not a book jacket. --Nbauman (talk) 13:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
The political/ historical/ social/ cultural/ ethical/ moral/ racial/ ethnic/ religious criticism of any film has nothing to do with criticism of movie 'crafting.' Film crafting is the domain of film critics, and analysis of political/ social issues in a film is the domain of political/ social critics. There are numerous historical examples of films that are widely considered by film critics to be very well 'crafted' but that were criticized heavily for their political/ historical/ social themes, with the criticism of ideological/ historical/ political themes of the film being entirely a separate issue from the craft of making the film. For example, one may want to read Why Zero Dark Thirty divides the media in half, which says, among other things: "Time [magazine]'s popular culture critic James Poniewozik [said]: Film history is full of movies that are false, amoral, brutal, sadistic, yet are triumphs of vision and storytelling." "There have been films, from Birth of a Nation to Triumph of the Will, that are aesthetically compelling but politically and ethically odious ... And political writers rarely believe art takes precedence over current events or history." "But if political writers do their job well, they understand something even more important: that ideological meaning and agendas are not incidental to thrilling films and cinematography. Why surgically remove politics from a discussion of a film’s final quality, rendering the argument so purely aesthetic that it becomes low-brow decadent, as is Richard Roeper’s in a broadcast. Roeper crowns Zero Dark Thirty the best [film] of the year [2012]: “a masterwork of filmmaking ... holy ‘bleep’ ”? Ethical lapses or gaps in movies should be critiqued, along with bad performances or absurd storylines." Finally, please see Zero_Dark_Thirty#Controversy. Regards, IjonTichy (talk) 05:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Claim that Zaid Jilani anti-Semitic I must correct the claim that Zaid Jilani is anti-Semitic. Those charges came from AIPAC. According to AIPAC, anybody, Jewish or not, who disagrees with the Likud party on Israel is anti-Semitic. AIPAC's "charges" against Jilani were that he used the term "Israel-firster" and "apartheid" in tweets. (I think it would be fair to call Jonathan Pollard an "Israel-firster", and ex-president Jimmy Carter described Israel as "apartheid".) Jilani was working for the Center for American Progress, which is a Democratic think tank with ties to the White House, and AIPAC got him fired. At first the Center defended Jilani, and then they caved in and fired him, because they can't afford controversy, and the Democratic Party is afraid to go against AIPAC. You can find more of the story on Salon and Mondoweiss and The Forward. Once again, those who can't defend their case on the facts and the merits will instead attack the messenger with false McCarthyite accusations. And false accusations of anti-Semitism is the McCarthyism of today. --Nbauman (talk) 05:31, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
|
Sub-Section
Interesting insights from User: pastProlog on POV pushing in a subset of WP articles
|
---|
From 1933 to 1953, the Democratic party held the presidency in the United States. Twenty years out of power is said to have been one of the factors leading to McCarthyism. McCarthy called it "20 years of treason" (then once he started fighting Eisenhower he started talking about 21 years of treason). Republicans began accusing the entire Democratic establishment of being KGB spies. The head of the John Birch Society thought this was a foregone conclusion, he wrote a book about how the Republican establishment including Eisenhower were all KGB spies. This cold war paranoia and political shift is all over Wikipedia. The faintest accusation of someone back then is all over their Wikipedia article. Much of the Democratic and liberal establishment from 1932-1952 is said to be Soviet spies on Wikipedia, and as far as I know, 100% of people who had questions about the Cold war. I don't know one liberal from that period who was more skeptical of the Cold war than Truman (who launched the Truman Doctrine in March 1947, then became involved in the Korean war) who is not accused of being a Soviet spy. I wish I could remember the whole list. The Wikipedia article for journalist I. F. Stone. The article for treasury official Harry Dexter White. Commerce department official and later author Harry Magdoff. Lieutenant Colonel Duncan Lee who had the misfortune of being acquainted with the kooky, flighty Elizabeth Bentley. In the light of all of these, the article for secretary of state Dean Acheson all but accuses him of being pro-communist. The "China hands" like Owen Lattimore (being accused of being an agent of the Chinese wouldn't do, so he was accused of being a Soviet agent). John S. Service who had the misfortune to be assigned to the Dixie Mission while working for the Foreign Service. The article on China hand Theodore H. White manages to have been relatively unscathed by the crazies. I'm sure there were some Russian spies in the US in the 1940s, and some American spies in Russia. Wikipedia still has this McCarthyist idea spread out over the high officials of that time were all KGB spies. Forget about anyone to the left of the 1947 Truman Doctrine to fight the Greek left, they're almost automatically concluded to be communist spies. Then it's proffered that Venona proves all these people as spies. But Venona has code names, not names. Venona says something like "Agent TREE met us in Central Park in May 8, 1948". As so-and-so lived in New York in 1948, the editors use that fact to link a codename to a name. Venona is said to prove every accusation, but it does not. Most of the people who it does seem to confirm were European emigres and people in the communist party orbit. Not the liberal WASPs in the Democratic establishment who are accused of being Soviet spies. The Wikipedia articles on various Democratic officials in the 1930s and 1940s are nuts. Even a neutral article like the Theodore White one has to mention that he was suspected to be a communist spy at one time. -- Posted by pastProlog, on 25 October 2016 |
Sub-Section
Brilliant insights from User: Viriditas on developing and sharpening your thinking skills when writing WP articles
|
---|
From a user talk page: An editor asserted: Where there are a range of different views on a topic, all of them are supposed to be reflected in the article in accordance with their respective prominence in the sources . The problem is that conspiracy theories are considered WP:FRINGE. Giving any undue weight to them is contrary to Wikipedia policy. It is not "prominence" which counts - it is whether a theory is considered fringe by the mainstream scholars on the topic. U.S._military_response_during_the_September_11_attacks does not include Meacher at all. Nor does United_States_government_operations_and_exercises_on_September_11,_2001. September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theories#Intelligence_warnings does explicitly cite Meacher's theories. Note Meacher is a leader in the 9/11 Truth movement "Fringe" without any doubt. In short - no reason under Wikipedia policy to give "equal time" in any way to the vocal conspiracy mongers. In short Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth). And Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible, but currently unaccepted, theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. When we legitimize conspiracy theories by using SYNTH lists of "they all were Masons", "they all were Jewish ethnicity", "they all were Russians", "they all were (fill in the blank)" or anything of that sort, we violate Wikipedia policies. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Is the US a totalitarian society using Wolin's theory of "inverted totalitarianism"? Or is that theory WP:FRINGE?
Questia doe not find Wolin widely accepted. 2 reviews in journals only. One site which does push him is the notorious "globalresearch.ca" fringe theory site (see WP:RS/N for a bunch of discussions about that!) And of course AlterNet, which even manages to accuse G. W. Bush of instituting a Nazi totalitarian regime in the US, and says that technology is to blame for this new totalitarianism. Sorry - WP:FRINGE applies. Michel Chossudovsky has very colourful views to be sure. Collect (talk) 11:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Looked at the three most promising cites from JSTOR (I skip the ones which want money from me): Bell in Human Rights basically uses it as a plea for the election of Obama. Giroux mentions Wolin briefly, and then goes on to rant about "zombie fascism" where the academics have been basically emasculated by the anonymous corporatism of the US and "far right thugs" etc. Do you consider this a strong academic source backing Wolin? Brown equates neoliberalism and neoconservatism as each being de-democratizing positions - rather than aiming at Wolin's "totalitarianism", Davis says the two groups seem to cooperate in reducing the "rule of law" in favour of ad hoc agreements on some issues, that the apolitical neoliberals are inadvertently setting the stage for neoconservative authoritarianism based on "morality" (Davis does not seem to follow Wolin's path to Nazi analogues at all). Strangely, Brown spends a lot of space on "Christianity", and seems to basically follow Harris' view of the value or lack thereof - saying the Christians on the right see government as a pastor to the populace, levelling her sights at that issue - rather than following Wolin's anger at "technology." In fact she only cites Wolin in fn 38 which is a discourse about some referring to US interventionism as "fascism" where she specifies she is concerned about the "faceless social and cultural forces" at work in current society. So she does not adopt Wolin for sure. She does imply that there is no "substantive left vision" which seems totally at odds with Wolin's views. Zero for three - and that is all I get at a time. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I believe these might address your concerns. Per "... find people using the term on their own"we have. Who devotes a couple of pages of his introduction to discussing 'inverted totalitarianism'. It has its own section. From Questia we have
There is also this review on Questia which seems pretty positive. I believe these fulfill the criteria you earlier mentioned. I found several others on Questia who cite the book and/or term in their work as well but I stopped chasing them down after these three. I simply do not see how Wolin or 'Inverted Totalitarianism' can be considered fringe considering the current weight of evidence. Jbh (talk) 23:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC) Frist - Archer is a review, and I previously noted it. It is not an endorsement at all of the "theory." Stout in a footnote says "On page 291, he refers to the need “to encourage and nurture a counterelite of democratic public servants” and argues that this counterelite can already be found to a large extent in “numerous nongovernmental organizations.” In effect, I am extending this thought, but at the expense of the “fugitive” democrat’s distaste for hierarchy as such." Which is not a claim of any sort of support for the theory at all ... indeed, it has nothing to do with "inverted totalitarianism" per se. Leaving the book from "Langaa Research and Publishing Common Initiative Group" which appears to primarily focus on books about Cameroon. It might have a minor problem in that it asserts that (Capitalism) "in an inherently unequal system" and thus Capitalism and Democracy are fundamentally incompatible. The preface dwells extensively on this particular premise - and that "elections" in such a nation are inherently undemocratic. While this is an interesting thesis, it appears based on an African view of elections not widely held otherwise. It is, however, using Wolin's words without using his stated theory. The preface then decries Western coverage of African elections and economies. It also says neololiberalism is the defacto position of capitalism, and that its agenda is to "create globalized states in Africa." This also has nothing actually to do with Wolin's theory either. And the position that "western democracy" is not what Africa needs is a clear position as well. If you wish to use this book, what it supports is not what Wolin states, and what this book supports is a strange version of "democracy" peculiar to Africa, and not "Western democracy" as a system. Thus one should read more than just the Roman numeral pages ... even reading just the first chapter of the book shows its use of terminology is aimed primarily at opposing free markets, opposing limiting government spending where large populations are poor, railing at France for not supporting the CFAs and their economies rather than keeping a stable Euro, and for keeping a limit on national overdrafts of those currencies (two different CFAs). And also blaming every UN agency in sight for abetting the devaluation of the currencies. Wolin is not within a mile of this. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Collect, please read what I wrote again. I'll copy it here so you don't have to look:
This is not an accusation, this is an analogy, showing the fallaciousness of such accusations by way of example, not their veracity by way of assertion. In this case, the default position is that you are not paid by the Koch brothers, nor could one reasonably assume that you are based on an absence of evidence. Viriditas (talk) 01:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC) Wolin's sideways and upside down inverted totalitarianism nonsense is fringe primarily because those that might be the polar opposite of that notion have not bothered to rebuttal it...because its ridiculous. Much like NIST's reluctance to entertain or waste time rebutting retarded 9/11 truther stuff. Lunatic fringe theories seem to be more and more common in the university system, thanks in no small part to discriminatory hiring procedures which eliminate anyone that doesn't like drinking the same Kool-Aid as the typical university imperial goof-trooper.[292] Why Wolin chose to compare what he hates with Nazism or anything Nazi is obvious...by comparing something to what is almost universally decreed to be a reprehensible entity, it gives the thing they hate equal footing and helps provide distaste. These tenured professors are so amusing what with their cushy tenured jobs that they will never lose until someone uncovers them for plagiarism or willingly accepts their resignation after they are investigated for crackpot theories, or they simply murder and attempt to murder other members of their university after being denied tenure.--MONGO 07:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
That's the same tactic the 9/11 truthers employ, demand cited rebuttals to fringe views...the truthers then claim victory because it cannot be referenced....but that's because the fringe view is so fringe mainstream sources do not bother to address it. The fact that no one has bothered to address it proves it is fringe. It's not supported in mainstream sources either. The article Inverted totalitarianism should probably go to Afd.--MONGO 19:46, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm starting to understand why other editors have referred to this thread as "crazy town". Collect has added leading questions to these threads, questions that misstate what Wolin and others have actually said. For example, Collect changed this thread title to say "Is the US a totalitarian society using Wolin's theory of "inverted totalitarianism"? Or is that theory WP:FRINGE?" This is very strange, since Wolin himself wrote:
So, it appears that for every claim made about Wolin by editors in this "crazy town" thread, we find the exact opposite claims made by Wolin himself. Funny, that. Viriditas (talk) 03:18, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Is the apparent call for revolution in the US a WP:FRINGE position as stated by Wolin on the Truthdig site? Again from the truthdig cite:
Is this a fringe view? Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Jbh (talk) 14:42, 8 March 2015 (UTC) Or possibly this from that bastion of revolution The Johns Hopkins University Press.
Damn, that is some really FRINGEy stuff. Who would have thought that there is a mainstream liberal political philosopher who thought the 1990's US was a better place than post 2001. Of course what is said in Truthdig is much more accurate than the peer reviewed literature of the field. <g> Jbh (talk) 15:04, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
See WP:HARASS
See WP:HARASS and stop it now. Collect (talk) 00:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Is Florida a "fringe" state filled with fringe politicians who believe in fringe ideas? Should we update all of our Florida articles and political biographies to reflect that the state no longer subscribes to science but to its own version of reality funded by the Koch brothers?
What do you think? Do we need a new Florida fringe guideline? Viriditas (talk) 05:55, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Nope, I'm not taking note of random disputes on random user talk pages. if you think admin action is required as a result of anything that happens here, you can request it at WP:AE or in a forum described in WP:DR, as the case may be. Sandstein 15:43, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
This (now traditional) principle and its rational/bureaucratic authority, beyond its luster from Brad's charismatic authority, may be useful in your ongoing saga. ANI discussion: Harassment, hounding and baiting by Viriditas at User talk:Collect Collect (talk · contribs) is serving a week-long block and asked Viriditas (talk · contribs) to cease harassing him (see WP:HARASS) yet Viriditas persists baiting Collect nevertheless [307]. This not a new pattern for Viriditas and its pretty ridiculous he should be misusing a blocked editor's talk page for harassing him.--MONGO 08:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Florida Center for Investigative Reporting has just been started - alas it appears to be Coatrack from the Rick Scott article with its current content and sourcing. I find no sign that the organization is generally notable, but the author is the one who filed the ArbCom case against me - so I dare not touch this one. If the organization is notable, I would like to know. Right now its "claim to fame" is its allegation that Florida employees are officially barred for saying "climate change." Including a claim that since Scott does not answer questions about the "ban" that this s somehow "notable" in itself. I have now been quite successfully harassed from anything remotely connected to politics or BLPs on Wikipedia by the many complaints and noticeboard posts, and even a "proposal" on my UT page that we declare Florida officially a "fringe state" filled with "fringe politicians" with "fringe ideas" which I find a clear case of harassment, alas. In any event, I will not touch this "organization" but think the views of others on its inherent notability may be worthwhile. Cheers. 12:23, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
The article Florida Center for Investigative Reporting has recently been beefed up, and it now looks entirely legitimate. Maybe we should contact FCIR to investigate the personality conflict between editors, described above (surely FCIR would do a better job of it than ArbCom).Anythingyouwant (talk) |
Sub-Section
Interesting analysis, and (temporary) retirement essay, from admin TParis
|
---|
SO LONG, AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH I've decided to quit the project. I'm not doing this out of anger or resentment, though I do have a bit of both. This has been long thought out and planned for over a year. I've lost interest in the project, mostly in being an admin. I don't feel I can turn in the admin hat without the issues I was involved in as an admin not haunting me and paying me special visits. I'd rather just call it a day completely. I love this project, I love it's idea, and I love it's spirit. Thank you all for being great friends and sharing a great ideal. For the most part, my experience on this has been very positive. I don't know that I've achieved much of anything lasting here. Many of my contributions could be described as a MMORPG style participation. I was active in ANI and AN, enforcing discretionary sanctions, closing RFCs, ect. I spent some time closing AFDs, doing CSDs, patrolling UAA, but none of that lasted longer than six months. At my RfA I said I'd fight deletion and UAA backlogs and I don't think I did any of that well. I lost stamina early. I haven't been an admin in anything other than name for a very long time. I average perhaps five tool actions per month for over a year with the exception of a hour here and there of "I'm going to try to make a difference today" in some backlog. So, as an admin, I'm not sure I did my part. Perhaps my biggest achievement as an admin is in finding other potential candidates to encourage to run. I'm happy that those people were successful and I'm sorry for what the hell I've encouraged them to volunteer for. As a content contributor, I fell even further behind. I've created a few articles that I am proud of, I've saved a few from deletion that I am proud of. My biggest contribution though was to military-related subjects in Hawaii. If I do come back at all, it'll be to work on these articles. Thank you to everyone who helped me get Ford Island on the main page on Dec 7th, there is no way at all that I am qualified to write a featured article and it was only by the grace, patience, diligence, and guidance of everyone involved on that article that it even remotely passes as an FA. I am sure that the talents of Malleus/Eric could still find plenty to fix and that there were some shortcomings in my writing. In fact, I'm not entirely sure I'd be offended if someone were to decide that it wasn't FA material and demote the article. I wanted to stray from the norm and speak out to a few very special people who have influenced me not only on this project but their perspectives have changed some of my life opinions. Many of these folks have acted as mentors, as a tiller, as a sounding board, as a critical dissenting opinion, as a double check, or simply as a growing opportunity for me. There is no particular order to this list, I mostly just wanted to say thanks and appreciate people for their time and friendship. Apologies to anyone who felt that we've had a personal connection and I've forgotten to mention you. Thank you's
What contributed to my feelings to go? For those of you who have a hard time accepting perspectives that differ from your own, you can skip to the finally - you won't be happy with anything I say anyway. Anyone else who is interested in my perspective on this project should continue to read. One of the primary reasons I am leaving is because of the harassment I received and the community's lack of response against it by Coretheapple, Smallbones, Figureofnine and Atethnekos. In 2013, I wrote an article off-line and emailed it to a client who paid for the writing with the intention of the client posting it on Wikipedia. I, personally, have never made an edit on Wikipedia for money or used my identity or reputation to add content to Wikipedia that otherwise would never survive on it's own merits. Despite that, these editors have insisted on calling me a paid editor. Coretheapple, particularly, has gone around the project into topics I haven't even been involved into mention how he knows of at least 1 administrator who gets paid to edit. The constant hounding and harassment by these four really just shows me that editors have nothing better to do than to attack each other with venom and can expect nothing out of the community for it. In 2014, the WMF passed new terms of service that allowed each Wikipedia project the option to opt out of certain COI disclosure requirements. SlimVirgin and Jytog attempted to start an impartial and unbiased RFC on the subject after I voluntarily terminated my own RFC in favor of their efforts. When these four realized the RFC would happen, they filibustered and derailed until both SlimVirgin and Jytog had enough and decided they wouldn't volunteer their time. It was one of the worst cases of gaming the system and bad faith I've ever seen on this project - and no one cared. What incensed me the most was a comparison of paid editing to drunk driving - a clear personal attack and BLP violation. The fact that editors can make intentional attacks and then play it off like they had no idea it would or could be offensive, even denying the history of the attack, is one of the major contributions to the failure of the civility policy. It has created an expressway out of the civility policy: say your attack, deny it's background, and good faith will protect you. Another of the major issues that has disillusioned me is the blatant and no-apologies-made liberal bias in political articles. Editors with a liberal slant have been going to articles on conservative organizations and people and have made an effort to add "conservative" as a pejorative to these articles as early on and as often as possible while simultaneously insisting that there is no reason to mark liberal personalities as liberal. The article I encounter this most often is RealClearPolitics where editors have attempted to assert that it was "founded by conservatives" despite the living people never identifying themselves as conservative. Another examples are the lead paragraphs of the liberal-learning Newsweek and the conservative leaning The Weekly Standard. Immediately in the first sentence, The Weekly Standard is described as neoconservative. On Newsweek, there is a single sentence under media bias about a report describing it as liberal-leaning and an entire paragraph and a sentence by liberal organizations such as Media Matters for America, which happily describes itself as anti-conservative on it's very own about page, used as an independent neutral third party to refute the claims. Greek_government-debt_crisis#Alleged_pursuit_of_national_self-interest is a Marxist defense of Greece and attack on Germany's success in a clear NPOV violation to push the socialism viewpoint and attack capitalism. It quotes Paul Krugman making an ad hominem assault on Germany without science or academics to back up his claims and amounts to "don't listen to them" and using "Nobel prize winning" as an appeal to authority. The entire section contains an entirely slanted point of view and several clear instances of original research such as:
This whole section was very clearly written by someone in the EU, and possibly Greece itself, with an point of view to push. I'm thinking it was some University student's essay in an economics class that they then adapted for Wikipedia. I've also witnessed a surprising number of editors arguing that Media Matters for America is a neutral unbiased reliable source while Fox News is not. Media Matters for America openly declares itself anti-conservative on their about page. That's not unbiased, they are targeting conservative news. Anyone using MMfA as a reliable source for facts, and not opinions, is not here to write a neutral encyclopedia. In fact, the article on Fox News has an entire paragraph dedicated to opinion by MMfA. Go over to the article on CBS and there is a single paragraph about CBS flubbing the facts that, for two years, contained a cheap "Well, Bush probably lied anyway" on it until I removed it myself. It's interesting that on a CBS article, not only does it contain significantly less criticism but it also contains an unsourced negative BLP attack cop-out that no one cared enough to remove. And on the subject of opinions, one of my greatest pet peeves is the insistence to include negative personal opinions in articles about conservatives but to argue that such things from the conservative 'blog-o-sphere' is undue and not important on liberal articles. Regarding politics, I have recently been equally disappointed that the articles on Chris Kyle went the other direction. Although I support Chris Kyle, I think there has been a conservative effort to protect the articles from negative information. Enough content exists to write two solid paragraphs and for the content to be weighted properly in the articles. On another article, I was impressed that Casprings offered up cutting out MMfA in return for cutting out Breitbart. Neither should exist and kudos to Casprings for showing some impartiality there. Ultimately, the reasons in this section are secondary to my real reason for leaving which is disinterest. Finally None of that really matters though. Those are just the reasons I don't feel happy here. But even when I was happy, my energy level was waning. I have other interests outside of this project to pursue. I love to read and I want to get back into that. I love to game and I want to do that also. But most importantly I want to spend more time with my family and I believe they are on their last nerve with me and this project. They've supported me during Wikimania 2012, they've supported me while trying to get Ford Island to featured article class, and they've had patience when I was heavily involved in some Wikipedia issue or another. It's time that I devote more attention to them. Very Respectfully, TParis |
Additional resources for editing WP
Some resources which may aid in contributing to WP conversations and editing WP articles:
- WP: DGAF
- WP: WikiSloth
- User Heimstern on accepting the fact that Wikipedia is going to suck sometimes
- WP: Boomerang
- WP: Simplified ruleset
- Category:Wikipedia essays explaining processes
- WP: NPOV, V and OR
- WP: Dispute resolution
- WP: Don't take the bait
- WP: Don't be a fanatic
- WP: No angry mastodons
- WP: How to lose
- If people disagree with you or revert your edits, it probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things
- WP: Method for consensus building
- WP: Etiquette
- WP: Civility
- WP: No personal attacks
- WP: Arguments to avoid in edit wars and WP: Edit warring
- WP: Revert only when necessary
- meatball: foster each other, meatball: defend each other and meatball: reciprocal improvement
- WP: ANI Advice
- WP: Civil POV pushing, WP: Reliable sources and undue weight, WP: Coatrack, WP: Attack page, WP: Disruptive editing, WP: Tendentious editing, WP: Advocacy, WP: Expert retention, CIVIL POV Pushing Strategies (a user page essay), User:Ed Poor/POV pushing, WP: Be neutral in form, WP: POV and OR from editors, sources, and fields, WP: Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat (in-depth, highly detailed, highly effective advice on coping with civil POV pushers), WP: Please be a giant dick, so we can ban you, WP: New admin school/Dealing with disputes, WP: Town sheriff, WP: POV Railroad, WP: Gaming the system, WP: WIKILAWYERing
- Free online books on Wikipedia editing, with special emphasis on community building, collaboration and the consensus process (these books are available freely online in text, HTML and/or PDF format, or you can purchase a bound copy from online book sellers): Good Faith Collaboration by Joseph Reagle - full text of the book here ----- How Wikipedia Works by Phoebe Ayers, Charles Matthews and Ben Yates - full text of the book at Wikibooks: b: How Wikipedia Works ----- Wikipedia: The Missing Manual by John Broughton ----- The Wikipedia Revolution
- WP: Wikipedia is a work in progress
- Burnout (psychology)
- WP: Please do not bite the newcomers
- WP: Status quo stonewalling
- WP: Tendentious editing
- WP: Gaming the system
- WP: Drama
- WP: Ignore all dramas
- WP: Disruptive editing
- WP: Not being here to build an encyclopedia
- WP: Here to build an encyclopedia
- WP: Don't feed the divas
- WP: No vested contributors and meatball: Vested Contributor
- User Jehochman on Responding to rudeness
- User: TenOfAllTrades
- User: Jytdog (I disagree with some of his views, and agree with some)
- User: WLRoss
- User: Spinningspark
- User Redthoreau's Nuggets of Wiki Wisdom
- Category: User essays on civility (more than 25 user essays)
- Category: Wikipedia essays about civility (more than 70 essays)
- User:NE Ent, User:NE Ent/Civility, User:NE Ent/Notes on civility, User:NE Ent/Simple civility principle and User:NE Ent/Cabal
- User:Dr. Blofeld/Encyclopedia problems
- WP: Don't call a spade a spade
- WP: Avoiding difficult users
- Criticism of Wikipedia, WP: Criticisms (not the same as Criticism of Wikipedia), WP: Why Wikipedia is not so great, WP: Wikipedia is failing, WP: Wikipedia is succeeding, WP: Why Wikipedia is so great, WP: Testimonials, and WP: Replies to common objections (including a section comparing WP and communism)
- M: Darwikinism (and be sure to read the essays in the box on the right side of that page)
- M: Wikipedia power structure
- WP: Wikipedia is not a democracy
- WP: Wikipedia is not an anarchy
- WP: Wikipedia is not about winning
- WP: Wikipedia is not therapy
- WP: Wikipedia is not a battleground
- WP: What Wikipedia is not
- WP: WikiLove
- WP: Failure
- WP: Editing controversial subjects
- WP: Reliable_sources/ Noticeboard/ Archive_86#Alternet
- User: Jnc/Astronomer vs Amateur
- User: Nikodemos/Asymmetric controversy
- User: The Devil's Advocate
- User: Sean.hoyland, User talk: Sean.hoyland, and Sean.hoyland's contributions
- User:Nishidani, User talk: Nishidani, and Nishidani's contributions
- User: Nbauman and Nbauman's contributions
- User: Wetman
- User: Beyond My Ken (I disagree with some aspects of some of his views but I agree with many of his key perspectives; BMK is a very experienced Wikipedia editor and overall I strongly recommend reading [and periodically re-reading] his very long, detailed lists of highly sophisticated, insightful, mature, complex, multi-layered insights into many key aspects of Wikipedia)
- User Antandrus on Wiki Behavior
- User DGG on A librarian's POV
- User: Carrite
- User Ravpapa on How to insert bias into a Wikipedia article
- User Moreschi on Nationalist and religious troublemaking on Wikipedia
- User Raul654's laws
- Lectures, books and essays on effective communication/ negotiation methods. The methods discussed in the following resources can be generalized to potentially assist editors in the process of developing almost all WP articles. The methods discussed: adjusting your expectations, adopting the quality of "brilliant", setting out to make someone "right" instead of "wrong", finding and acknowledging shared values, being a good listener, finding areas of authentic agreement, contributing authentic agreement, using the Socratic method to ask questions and listen to the answers, and knowing when to persist and when to walk away. Lecture 1 (short) --- Lecture 2 (short) --- Lecture 3 (long) on Nonviolent Communication --- Lecture 4 (long) --- Lecture 5 (long) --- Getting to YES (book) --- Getting Past NO (book) --- The Anxious Organization - Why Smart Companies Do Dumb Things (book) --- WP: No angry mastodons --- WP: Method for consensus building --- WP: Writing for the opponent --- WP: Don't call a spade a spade --- User:NE Ent, User:NE Ent/Civility, User:NE Ent/Notes on civility, User:NE Ent/Simple civility principle and User:NE Ent/Cabal --- Negotiation --- WP: Negotiation (a short essay on negotiation, very different from the full encyclopedic article Negotiation; both the essay and article are useful) --- Appreciative inquiry --- WP: Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions --- How to disagree more effectively, by Paul Graham. If you resort to ad hominem-style argument to counter your opponent's argument, then you've already lost. You'd be wise to actually address the issues she has raised instead of attacking her. Ad hominem are not valid arguments on Paul Graham's hierarchy of argument. The first four levels of arguments at the bottom of the hierarchy are not valid. Actual valid argument starts at the fifth level (Counter argument) and good argument is the sixth level (Refutation) and the seventh (Refuting the central point) --- How to negotiate more effectively with people with whom you strongly disagree --- A practical example of the high cost of insisting on being right and refusing to compromise --- Insights into the most powerful forces that affect psychology that may aid in negotiation --- How to deliver constructive feedback/ constructive criticism most effectively (a specific form of negotiation): article 1 and article 2 (the first article is much more insightful and in-depth) --- meatball: foster each other, meatball: defend each other and meatball: reciprocal improvement
- On writing effective paragraphs, i.e., using a topic sentence followed by reasons and examples: Tutorial at Wikihow and Tutorial at Purdue Univ.
- WP: Editors matter
- WP: Administrators
- M: User:Qq/ Voting power is not allocated by donations
- WP: Single-purpose account (SPA)
- M: Megalomaniacal point of view
- WP: Cherrypicking
- WP: No original research (Synthesis)
- WP: These are not original research
- WP: What SYNTH is not
- Meatball: DefendAgainstPassion
- WP: Conflict of interest and WP: Conflict of interest limit
- WP: The Truth
- WP: Lunatic charlatans
- Criticism and Constructive criticism
- WP: Beware of the tigers
- Being an Administrator by Mindspillage
- Civility essay by Geogre
- Ignoring incivility by Heimstern
- Concerns by Tom Harrison
- Essay by Kylu
- Guy's Help page
- Observations by Ant
- On intrinsic motivation by Johnuniq
- On notability by Uncle G
- People People by Geogre
- Umbrage by Jehochman
- WP: There is no justice
- User: Three-quarter-ten
- User: Cyclopia
- User Tom harrison on bad cites
- WP: Owning articles and taking things personally, and WP: You don't own Wikipedia
- Winning arguments
- WP: Editor's index to Wikipedia
- WP: EEML
- WP: WITCHHUNT
- WP: VNT
- WP: COMPREHENSIVE
- WP: Do No Harm (the lines where it explains why it has been rejected: "do no harm" goes in the face of NPOV).
- WP: DISCRIMINATE (explaining one of the most misunderstood WP policies, WP:IINFO)
- WP: Product, process, policy -- The three P's
- WP: The role of policies in collaborative anarchy
- User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles -- One of the oldest set of rules, this statement of principles was written by a founder.
- Wikipedia:Five pillars: Perhaps the most popular set of rules, this was written as a simple summary for new editors.
- Wikipedia:Trifecta: This three-point simplified ruleset was the precursor to the Five Pillars page.
- Wikipedia:Core content policies: Brief summary and a bit of background on our core content policies.
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia: Blunt and to the point laying out what is Wikipedia
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia in brief: Focuses on the encyclopedic nature of the project.
- Wikipedia:Simplified ruleset: A longer page with more detail
- Wikipedia:Ethics: A list of various ethical codes
- Wikipedia:Ethical Code for Wikipedians
- Wikipedia:Purpose: Wikipedia's purpose
- User:Andrewa/creed: What Wikipedians believe
- Wikipedia:Pledges: Specific principles individual Wikipedians pledge to uphold
- Wikipedia: Here to build an encyclopedia: Behaviors that build, or destroy, the project
- Wikipedia: 8 simple rules for editing our encyclopedia
- Wikipedia: Ten Simple Rules for Editing Wikipedia
- Wikipedia: Historical archive/Rules to consider
- Wikipedia: Wikipedia does not need you and Wikipedia: You are not irreplaceable
Some of my additional personal observations on editorial disputes in WP
The articles listed above contain helpful, detailed, in-depth advice on dispute resolution (e.g. the articles on stonewalling, gaming the sys., drama, effective negotiation/ communication etc). The following is intended to complement that body of superb advice but not substitute for it.
In all disputes, work hard to remain cool, calm, and collected. If your edits fully adhere to WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV, and your edits are reverted without sufficiently valid reasoning, or if you are personally attacked or you observe other uncivil or distracting behavior, control your anger. If you are upset or pissed-off, take a Wikibreak. Stay cool when the editing gets hot. Work hard to control your emotions. Do not involve your ego in your talk-page comments and article edits. Leave your ego outside the building, before you enter the room to sit at your computer to edit WP - and bring your heart, passion, rationality and critical thinking into the room. This way, when you observe some ugly behavior by a user or when you "lose" a dispute, you will not misinterpret the nasty behavior or your "loss" as a personal injury or a trauma to your ego, and you'll be a more productive WP editor. Never waste your time (and the time of the community) engaging in (mild or serious) uncivil behavior, personal attacks, sarcasm, cynicism, or any other forms of distraction. (Read WP:drama and WP:Ignore all dramas.) Always stick to the hard facts. Be data-driven in all that you do, and ascertain that all your comments and edits are fully evidence-based. Ask the reverting editor to provide valid, verifiable, reliable, well sourced, well supported data/ evidence on why he reverted your edits. Work with him patiently, in a calm, polite and civil manner.
Be prepared to spend some (reasonable) amount of time on this. You'll be surprised when sometimes, an editor which you presumed to be stonewalling or disruptive, is actually motivated by some reasonable set of intentions. Always be open to the (non-trivial) possibility that other editors are not nearly as ill-intentioned as you assumed. If the other editor is not able to provide hard evidence/ facts/ convincing data to support his repeated reversions of your edits, but he persists in reverting you, then remain calm and collected. If he is uncivil, attacks you personally (ad hominem), attempts to WikiBait you, appeals to ridicule you, appeals to authority, attacks a straw man, or engages in any of the almost infinite variety of other shenanigans (some of which are listed in the articles above; also see list of fallacies, list of cognitive biases, and list of memory biases) and skulduggery acting, (intentionally or, more often, unintentionally), to distract, confuse, befuddle, flummox and stupefy you, resist the powerful temptation to attack back. Don't take the bait. His attacks on you are a signal that his arguments are not well-supported, and thus, to disguise the weakness of his arguments he resorts to distracting or attacking you, the messenger, instead of addressing your message. Listen to others, be sensitive to their feelings, respect their views, and seek consensus, but if they engage in distracting (e.g. uncivil) behavior, work hard to develop an insensitivity to their behavior. And work hard to resist the powerful temptation to prove you have a longer Phallus. See above on ego. Don't act like a dick. The only thing you'll accomplish by acting like a jerk is to bring out the jerk in other users. Politely remind them that their accusations against you can be easily turned back against them (Boomerang), remain civil, and seek dispute resolution (DR) via WP:AN, WP: DRN, WP: RSN, etc. See meatball: foster each other, meatball: defend each other and meatball: reciprocal improvement.
And be ready to accept that the dispute resolution process may rule against your edits, or that it may result in some compromise that you are only partially happy about, or even entirely unhappy about. Wikipedia values you as a contributor when you are able to disagree but commit, when you are committed to accepting community decisions that you oppose, because you prove you are capable of providing powerful arguments as to why a decision may be wrong, you use brutal (but always fully respectful, civil and considerate of the feelings of others) intellectual honesty to explain, directly and openly, why your views/ edits should prevail over those of your "opponents" or "adversaries", always supporting your views with hard data/ convincing evidence/ strong facts; but, after you've exhausted all avenues of dispute resolution, when a final decision is made by the community via the consensus process, the community values you when you stop fighting, accept defeat gracefully, fully support the decision (which you may still oppose), and help implement the idea you may disagree with or at least not interfere with the implementation. When you are a disagree-but-commit editor, you are more likely to be successful in your WP editing efforts in the long run, and avoid the all-too-common phenomenon where editors become angry, disillusioned and burned-out.
Learning when to walk away does not make you weak, a push-over, easy to roll-over. Learning to compromise does not imply you should not fight for your article development ideas. For more details, view the resources above, e.g. on effective communication/ negotiation methods.
More of my personal thoughts on editing WP
WP is a large and complicated project and it is impossible to summarize it in a few paragraphs (or even in a book of reasonable length). My own overly simplistic summary, based on the research described above, as well as on reading many WP articles and reading many lengthy discussions among WP editors, is WP is a seriously - although, overall, not fatally - flawed project, and is likely to remain so for many more years. Overall, WP is a worthwhile project, and should be taken seriously, but not too seriously, i.e., not to the point where you lose your perspective and your sense of humor and your enjoyment of editing the encyclopedia -- I highly recommend reading WP: DGAF and WP: WikiSloth. WP is an important global endeavor, but it is not the only important project in the world, nor the most important project. (Many WP editors would probably disagree with me on this issue. From looking at users' list of contributions, it appears some users spend 10-16 hours every day, practically 7 days every week, for many consecutive months or even years, contributing to the encyclopedia. Obviously many of these highly dedicated contributors consider WP to be the most important project in their lives. Some of these editors are here to push their POV into articles, and some are here to create a neutral, balanced, informative encyclopedia.)
In my view, one heavy tail of the distribution of WP articles represents bad articles, the other heavy tail represents good articles, and the remainder (i.e., the central area) of the distribution contains articles ranging from almost-decent to almost-good.
Bad articles (the first heavy tail)
The first heavy tail of the distribution contains WP articles that range from deeply flawed to fatally flawed, articles that serve more to misinform than inform. These articles suffer from a (in some cases unintentional, in other cases intentional) combination of crimes of lying by omission of key information as well as lying by outright commission of falsehoods or half-truths, including but not limited to cherry picking, providing no context or a partial, misleading or false context, articles serving as a coatrack or an attack page, or offering content with grossly incorrect weight or deceptive emphasis, bias, specious analysis, dubious veracity, questionable accuracy, myopia or gross over-simplification of highly complex, intricate, multi-layered, multi-dimensional, sophisticated issues. Some of these citations are based on e.g. crappy, ill-conducted, methodologically unsound, one-shot studies from biased groups, in a desperate and frantic effort to push a biased, false, unscientific or pseudo-scientific point of view into the encyclopedia.
The WP articles in this tail of the distribution are at worst false or misleading, at best toothless or impotent, i.e., at best a triumph of style over substance. These articles subject the reader to a type of Mushroom management (mushroom treatment): managing the perceptions of the reader by keeping the reader in the dark and feeding him/ her shit.
One of the main reason behind the poor quality of these WP articles is that the topics covered by these articles often fall outside the areas of interest or expertise of the vast majority of experienced WP editors. Thus, among all the editors who regularly and frequently contribute to the article, only a small number of editors are neutral, competent and intimately, deeply and broadly familiar with the topic of the article and with WP policies. This creates an opening for a relatively small number of hostile, aggressive, civil-POV-pushing editors (sometimes as few as a single editor) or well-intentioned but not-yet-competent users to exert grossly undue influence over the content of the article. (In my view, another of the main reason behind the poor quality of these WP articles is discussed in the set of insightful, mature essays by Dr. Kristine Mattis.)
From WP:CGTW: "If a person edits Wikipedia largely or solely to promote one side of a contentious issue, the project is almost certainly better off without them." "The more a viewpoint is odious, ignorant, wrong-headed, or obscure, the more likely its adherents will perceive Wikipedia as their best opportunity to promote it." "The most challenging, nuanced problems facing Wikipedia tend to attract the editors least capable of handling complexity or nuance." "if $username =~ m/truth|justice|freedom|neutrality/i, then the account should probably be blocked preëmptively, because nothing constructive will ever come from it." "Wikipedia's processes favor pathological obsessiveness over rationality. A reasonable person will, at some point, decide that they have better things to do than argue with a pathological obsessive. Wikipedia's content reflects this reality, most acutely in its coverage of topics favored by pathological obsessives."
The articles in the first tail of the distribution desperately need significantly more attention from knowledgeable, experienced editors who can write neutrally, and in many cases this attention must be provided repeatedly - some controversial articles that are modified frequently need attention just as frequently, and in some cases practically constantly. For partial lists of the many forms of the transmittal of untruths, see Category:Communication of falsehoods and List of fallacies. When reading a bad WP article, sometimes it is fairly easy to detect that it is full of bias, falsehoods and/or nonsense, but often it may be difficult to detect that the article is actually a POV-pushing, misleading, awful, worse-than-worthless piece of advocacy, because the article may appear to be well-organized, crisp and well-written, it may seem to contain factually accurate and verifiable information, may appear to be neutral in tone and broad in coverage, and illustrated by relevant images with suitable copyright licenses. In many cases, efforts to improve a non-neutral article are reverted, either immediately or more slowly by employing a variant of Salami tactics/ Salami slicing - by one or more articulate, knowledgeable, experienced, seemingly cooperative, seemingly neutral, seemingly civil but highly biased, overzealous, combative, fanatic, POV pushing editor(s) who are convinced they own the article. (A zealot can't change his mind. A fanatic can't change his mind and won't change the subject. —-Winston Churchill. A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim. —-George Santayana)
In some cases these disruptive editors are well aware they are acting fraudulently and intellectually dishonestly against the best interests of the encyclopedia; in other cases they are simply misguided and delude themselves into strongly believing they are actually protecting the article from POV pushers. For further insights, see WP: Civil POV pushing, WP: Reliable sources and undue weight, WP: Coatrack, WP: Attack page, WP: NPOV tutorial, WP:Disruptive editing, WP:Tendentious editing, WP:Advocacy, WP:Expert retention, CIVIL POV Pushing Strategies (a User page essay), POV pushing (a User page essay), Wikipedia: Be neutral in form, Wikipedia:POV and OR from editors, sources, and fields, Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat (in-depth, highly detailed, highly effective advice on coping with civil POV pushers), Wikipedia:Please be a giant dick, so we can ban you, Wikipedia:New admin school/Dealing with disputes, Wikipedia:Town sheriff, WP:POV Railroad, WP:Gaming the system, WP:WIKILAWYERing.
Further insights on the articles in the first tail of the distribution: In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger. — How Facts Backfire, Boston Globe, 11 July 2010. --- Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong; what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view. — Leon Festinger, When Prophecy Fails. --- One of the first effects of the hyper-democratization of data was to unmoor information from the context required to understand it. On the Internet, facts float about freely and are recombined more according to the preferences of intuition than the rules of cognition ... Combined with the self-reinforcing nature of online communities and a content-starved, cash-poor journalistic culture that gravitates toward neat narratives at the expense of messy truths, this disdain for actualities has led to world with increasingly porous boundaries between facts and beliefs, a world in which individualized notions of reality, no matter how bizarre, are repeatedly validated. — Seth Mnookin, The Panic Virus. --- "You can't convince a man to understand something when his entire belief system depends on him not understanding it." - Anonymous. -------- Note that Wikipedia is not a reliable source (although reliable sources used in a WP article can be used in building other WP articles).
By the way, I (Ijon Tichy) don't blame anyone, nor any group, for the poor condition of these articles. Every Wikipedia user including a casual reader and even an indefinitely or temporarily blocked/banned editor is an equal member of the WP community (only permanently banned editors are not considered members of the community), and it is as much my own responsibility to help remedy the bad, ugly, offensive, intellectually dishonest, sorry state of these articles as it is anybody's and everybody's responsibility. There is no 'us vs. them' on Wikipedia. The encyclopedia 'belongs' to (is a 'property' of) all of us, all of humanity.
Good articles (the second heavy tail)
In sharp contrast to the first heavy tail, the second heavy tail is comprised of WP articles that are truthful and factually accurate, with article quality ranging from very good to excellent. These articles are based on good quality scholarship, and the claims these articles make about the world are as valid and trustworthy as possible. If you feel angry, upset, stressed or depressed, you may want to read some of these articles, their beauty and high quality may cheer you up and may even renew your faith in humanity. By the way, many of the articles in this tail have not been officially nominated to receive a WP: Good Article or WP: Featured Article status.
Articles in between the two heavy tails
The remaining WP articles fall in between the two tails, i.e., these articles are somewhere between almost reasonably factually accurate and informative and fairly reasonably accurate and informative. I don't have sufficient hard data on the relative area under the two tails, i.e. the relative weight of the tails compared to each other and to the whole of Wikipedia. The relative weights vary depending on many additional factors such as the subject matter of any specific (sub)set of articles in the distribution. Thus, a more accurate statistical model for the classification of the quality of WP articles would be a multidimensional probability distribution.
Additional insights on the quality of WP articles
For additional insights on many issues related to the quality/ reliability/ accuracy/ truthfulness/ information content of WP articles, see Criticism of Wikipedia, WP: Criticisms (not the same as Criticism of Wikipedia), WP: Why Wikipedia is not so great, WP: Why Wikipedia is so great, WP: Wikipedia is failing, WP: Wikipedia is succeeding, WP: Testimonials, and WP: Replies to common objections (including a section comparing WP and communism).
In my view, approximately a similar multidimensional probability distribution model may hold for the community of WP editors. One dimension (i.e., one heavy-tailed probability distribution) represents the range of the overall contribution of editors to WP, i.e., the first heavy tail of that dimension (probability distribution) contains those editors who damage the encyclopedia, the other heavy tail of the same dimension represents editors who greatly benefit the project. Another dimension represents the level of competence of WP editors, ranging from a heavy tail representing editors who are not competent to a second tail representing those editors who are highly competent/ talented/ gifted. Another dimension may represent the range of knowledge of WP editors - the first heavy tail represents editors who are uninformed or misinformed and are unwilling to become informed and the other tail contains editors who are highly informed and are willing and able to inform themselves of new areas of knowledge. Yet another dimension has a heavy tail representing editors who are not here to build an encyclopedia and another heavy tail representing those who are here to build an encyclopedia. Another dimension typifies the level of civility of editors. Yet another dimension portrays editors' total number of contributions (and that dimension may, in turn, be more accurately represented as a multidimensional probability distribution, with one dimension representing the number of contributions to articles, another dimension the number of contributions to article talk pages, another dimension the number of contributions to user talk pages, etc). And so on and so forth for all the dimensions of the editing community.
Some examples
For one example out of thousands of possible examples, consider the subset of WP editors who are not here to build an encyclopedia. Their level of competence varies greatly - some of them are not competent, some are highly competent with many accolades and awards (e.g. barnstars etc) posted on their user pages. Their interests vary too - e.g. some are here to promote various ultra-nationalist agendas, ideologies or propaganda, some are here to promote fascism and/or Antisemitism, Islamophobia, racism, misogyny, socio-economic elitism, hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against minorities [ethnic minorities, social minorities, economic minorities, religious minorities, and more], and/or to promote pseudoscience, crankery, conspiracy theories, marginal nationalist or pseudo historic viewpoints and the like, together with pseudo scholarship and other theories entirely unrecognized by academia. (“All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those toward whom it is directed will understand it ... Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.” --Adolf Hitler. “Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he or she can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.” -- Arthur Schopenhauer. In a time of universal deceit, telling truth is a revolutionary act. --George Orwell. Humans substitute words for reality and then argue about the words. --Prof. Edwin Armstrong, prolific inventor of FM radio.)
In Wikipedia, debates can often (not always) be won by stamina. Editors who care more and argue longer, tend to get their way. The result, very often, is that individuals and organizations with a very strong interest in having Wikipedia say a particular thing tend to win out over other editors who just want the encyclopedia to be solid, neutral, and reliable. The latter, i.e. the less-committed editors, simply have less at stake and their attention is more distributed. In some cases, the users who are not here to build an encyclopedia concentrate most of their POV pushing in a relatively small set of closely related articles (see WP:Single-purpose account (SPA)). These are often individuals extremely dedicated to promoting a single cause or a theme - e.g. ultra-nationalism combined with fascism or anti-Semitism and/or anti-Islamism, etc. (Highly recommended reading: George Orwell's 'Notes on Nationalism'.) They attempt to water down language and unreasonably exclude, marginalize or push views beyond the requirements of Neutral point of view, especially by giving undue weight to their preferred theories. Such grandstanding is forbidden by a variety of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (Verifiability, Neutral point of view, What Wikipedia is not and Fringe theories to name just a few). These policies, correctly understood and correctly used, will successfully exclude non-notable or fringe views. But many dedicated fringe advocates are familiar with these policies, and have become experts at gaming them or even using them against neutrally-minded but inexpert editors. The latter often find their efforts subverted at every step by civil POV pushing advocates who revert war over edits, engage in nitpicking and pedantry designed to obfuscate the main issues, frivolously request citations for obvious or well known information, wikilawyer, argue endlessly about the neutral-point-of-view policy and particularly try to undermine the undue weight clause.
This maneuvering, filibustering and stonewalling is soon likely to exhaust the patience of any reasonable person who naturally prefers not to reason with the unreasonable, and who, unlike the fringe advocate, has no special interest or passion other than striving to maintain neutrality and reliability. Additionally, by continually engaging fringe advocates in endless argument, you run the risk of turning Wikipedia into a battleground or a debating society. At the present time, Wikipedia does not have an effective means to address superficially polite but tendentious, long-term, fringe (including fringe within fringe) advocacy. This is one of the main flaws of Wikipedia; that unlike conventional encyclopedias, fanatics (no matter how amateur or idiotic) can eventually get their way if they stay around long enough and make a sufficient number of edits and reversions. (This is sometimes known as the "Most Insane Person Almost Always Wins" theory of Internet debate. See Dogbert: "Reality is controlled by the people who are most insane." -- Scott Adams) In this sense, Wikipedia's 'commitment to amateurism' does not always work for the best interests of the project. Some of these advocates edit WP for years, accumulating many edits to their dubious "credit", without significant improvement in their intent or, in some cases, their level of overall competency or their knowledge of the subject matter, or their understanding of the spirit of Wikipedia's communal culture or WP's vision, goals and policies - although often they are highly familiar with WP's policies but they choose to abuse the spirit of the policies, while almost always carefully cultivating the appearance of strictly following the letter of the rules. After you read the "contributions" of this group of editors to articles and article talk pages (and sometimes combined with viewing their user pages and user talk pages that are filled with compliments and accolades and rewards bestowed upon them by fellow adoring fanatics/ POV-pushers/ advocates) you begin to feel demoralized, you feel your energy, enthusiasm and inspiration begin to drain out of you, and you feel dumber, not smarter - you feel your interaction with their "work" has degraded your abilities. Often, they pollute WP articles and talk pages for years without being banned or blocked (except perhaps for occasional, mild, temporary sanctions) because they are more likely to edit in relatively specialized topics outside of the interests or subject matter expertise of the vast majority of experienced contributors.
And in many cases experienced contributors avoid engaging with these editors because experience has shown that it's practically impossible to establish effective two-way communications with these users, it's taxing on the limited amount of time available to experienced volunteer editors to attempt (usually in vain) to get through to these counter-productive users to try to convince them to accept the validity of alternative, well-supported viewpoints. "You can't convince a man to understand something when his entire belief system depends on him not understanding it." - anonymous. (See e.g. Cognitive dissonance and Disorders of consciousness. Most importantly, see WP: Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat.)
Wikipedia relies on consensus as the final arbiter of content, rather than on a ruling board of supposedly expert editors, as in, say, the Columbia Encyclopedia. Wikipedia’s continual give-and-take corrections work well, generally (but not always) for many topics, for example STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics), business administration/ management, and art, but work less well for many other topics, for example some socio-economic systems, culture, history, political systems, human conflicts, some biographies or personal or group views/ beliefs/ perspectives, and literature. Consensus is sometimes ill-informed, and dubious content cannot be dislodged because consensus generally tends to favor familiar myths. (However, it is not WP's job to identify firm answers to opinionated stances, so don't expect it to be fully "accurate" on topics such as controversial parts of history, politics, design, etc. Those subjects are generally not easy to describe "correctly" and are usually not covered fully accurately by most sources.) For additional insights, see Reliability of Wikipedia.
As a second example, consider the subset of WP editors who are here to build an encyclopedia, who are highly competent, and whose well-reasoned contributions to communal discussions and highly competent article-improvement efforts energize you, elevate your thoughts and raise your thinking. Almost everything they do or say on the encyclopedia is well-supported by solid evidence/ facts/ hard data/ information/ proof and by Wikipedia policies. Often, reading their contributions helps you develop your abilities more fully, and these talented editors are often a joy to work with, even in cases when you don't necessarily agree with their specific proposals for article improvement.
And of course things are not black and white. For example many editors who are initially not competent but are willing and able to learn eventually may become highly competent. As another example, I've seen cases where gifted editors who are (mostly) here to build an encyclopedia occasionally [not very frequently but also not very rarely] do or say some extremely ill-considered, incompetent, disruptive, tendentious, ignorant, idiotic and/or offensive things that damage the encyclopedia and/or the community. Sometimes these well-meaning, talented editors make a big mistake because they may become over-confident in their own skills and abilities or overly aggressive in their zeal and their religious-fanatic fervor to protect their beloved encyclopedia - or their own POV, or their own ego - against perceived evil, satanic POV pushers. Basking in the well-earned glory of an impressively long list of contributions and the well-deserved admiration and respect of the community, sometimes these skilled, proficient, productive editors overstretch and overextend themselves and overreach into areas beyond their subject-matter knowledge or expertise (or their understanding of human behavior, or even their understanding of the spirit of WP's cultural values), and they do or say some shockingly awful things. In some cases they are only making an innocent, well-intentioned mistake; in some other cases they are deliberately doing dishonest, hypocritical POV-pushing, soapboxing, pushing crazy conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, ad-hominem attacks or some other ignorant drivel, or professing unfailing belief in the inevitability of their bizarre cause or some other delusional horseshit. In many cases these (otherwise highly productive and talented) people are too prideful to admit their horrific actions, and instead of acknowledging their own flaws and retreating gracefully from the ugly mess they have created or exacerbated, they become even more aggressive, hostile and obnoxious, and they wikilawyer excessively or launch ad-hominem attacks directed at everyone and everything in sight - WP users, primary and secondary sources, and even the topic/subject of the specific WP article(s) under contention. For additional insights, I highly recommend the books When Smart People Fail by Carole Hyatt and Linda Gottlieb, The Anxious Organization - Why Smart Companies Do Dumb Things by Jeffrey A. Miller, Why Smart People Do Dumb Things by Mortimer Feinberg and John Tarrant, and What Smart People Do When Dumb Things Happen at Work by Charles E. Watson.
In my experience, the are many competent WP editors who are here to build an encyclopedia. Many WP editors are at least informed or are willing and able to inform themselves, seek a reasonably wide range of perspectives on issues, are open to changing their own minds and are competent. Wikipedia editors are a community of volunteers, and many are generally generous, patient and helpful and have a healthy, sane attitude and a reasonable perspective on a broad range of issues. Many WP editors are good team players and open to collaboration on building consensus. They 'get' Wikipedia's communitarian, egalitarian culture of mutual aid and mutual support. Wikipedia's success results from the many little things they do that add-up to building an encyclopedia that makes them feel proud of one another.
Yet more of my personal thoughts on editing WP
Wikipedia appears to be on a complicated path that is zigzagging and partially contradictory, because the participants have different interests, respond in diverse ways to the events (edits, discussions, the spirit and the letter of WP's culture and policies, etc) along the way, and differ in knowledge and goals, in their sense of urgency and long-term perspectives. The same experiences can transform their aspirations in numerous directions, sometimes along converging pathways, and sometimes along divergent pathways. Wikipedia is a collaborative work of genius, a shared work of the imagination among a community of people of myriad talents, interests, voices, and generations that proceeds on the premise that the labor never ends. The labor entails a ceaseless making and remaking of Wikipedia's articles, laws and customs (culture, philosophy, policies, guidelines, power structure, Wikipedian ideals, etc), i.e., a kind of sentient organism, the encyclopedia an us, not a them. There will always be more work. The writer Marcel Proust said, "The real act of discovery consists not in finding new lands, but in seeing with new eyes." Proust also said, "The best voyage of discovery, the best fountain of Eternal Youth, would be not only to visit strange lands but to return from our travels possessing new eyes, to behold the universe through the eyes of another, of a hundred others, to behold the hundred universes that each of them beholds, that each of them is." And T. S. Eliot said, "We shall not cease from exploration, And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started, And know the place for the first time."
Wikipedia is the default resource for many millions of people, and many WP editors feel a responsibility to build it properly, and keep it open and free, keep it sane, and most of all, to exercise judgement to get the facts right, because this project is likely to be a base - or at least an inspiration - on which many unforeseeable future communal projects may be built. Overall, despite its many flaws, WP is a powerful force for knowledge. It should be celebrated.
Certain aspects of Wikipedia appear to be relatively static and stable, other aspects appear to be deteriorating or regressing, and other aspects of Wikipedia appear to be improving or progressing. The positive aspects of WP - a money-free, property-free, ownership-free, profit-motive-free, competition-free and secrecy-free system, an extremely high degree of transparency, openness, and accessibility to view and modify each other's work and redistribute content, egalitarianism, equal access to consuming information (and creating information) instead of restricting access to content via artificial scarcity, a community of intrinsically motivated volunteer contributors altruistically giving their time and energy with no expectation of direct or indirect financial compensation or remuneration, working autonomously, independently, interdependently and collaboratively without external coercion or extrinsic rewards, democratic/ participatory/ non-coercive decision making from below instead of undemocratic/ authoritarian/ coercive/ arbitrary/ bureaucratic decision making imposed from above - these aspects of WP may be pointing at the beginning of a path towards something that may resemble a utopia, albeit a circumscribed/ restricted/ constricted form of utopia. (In love there are no penalties and no payments, and what is given is indistinguishable from what is received. -- Eleanor Farjeon. True love is inexhaustible; the more you give, the more you have. -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Love is that condition in which the happiness of other persons is essential to your own. -- Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land.) Wikipedia is many decades away from anything resembling a utopia, but the many positive aspects of the encyclopedia appear to be slowly approaching something that may point towards the distant beginning of the beginning (not the end of the end, nor the beginning of the end, not even the end of the beginning) of some kind of real-world, practical, pragmatic, messy, imperfect, non-ideal, limited form of utopia - the kind of sub-optimal utopia that an adult, grown-up, reasonably intellectually and emotionally mature person may be able to realistically imagine/ visualize (as opposed to the perfect utopia of the fantasy world of children). Despite its considerable strengths, WP is not on the road towards anything resembling an ideal utopia -- there is no specific, perfect, static, fixed, invariant, final state for the encyclopedia. Nothing is ever in stone on Wikipedia; there is no finality. WP is an evolving, adapting, dynamic work in progress, an eternally unfinished project: the encyclopedia will never be "complete" and additional work will always be necessary to create new articles and update and improve (and at least in the case of the first tail discussed above, very significantly improve) every aspect of existing articles and Wikipedia's policies and culture, even foundational/ core aspects, to continuously improve them and re-align them with changes in society, e.g. with new knowledge (e.g. scientific or technological discoveries) and novel ideas. ("Success is not final, failure is not fatal, it's the courage to continue that counts.") WP decisions, most importantly article development decisions, are based on a combination of, to a very large extent, democratic processes - bottom-up consensus building, participatory democracy, deliberative democracy, collective intelligence and complex adaptive leadership; and, to a small extent, non-democratic processes - top-down decisions, power authority and authoritarianism, dominatory power hierarchy, Gerontocracy, and Kyriarchy. Additional processes which impact the WP decision making process include e.g. the tyranny of small decisions. (See Wikipedia power structure for further perspectives.) Both the democratic and undemocratic processes appear to be dominated by old(er) white males spending an abundance of time contributing to the encyclopedia. In a relatively small number of cases, this (partial) dominance by old(er) geezers is detrimental to WP; in the majority of cases, the work of these senior citizens is beneficial.
WP also benefits from the work of many young(er) contributors. Many relatively inexperienced editors don't know that some task is impossible or extremely difficult to do, so they just go ahead and do it and get the job done and solve the problem. Precisely because of his/ her youth, inexperience, naïvete and innocence, the newcomer sometimes has a more open mind than the veteran. Inexperienced people are often less prejudiced towards unquestioning acceptance of the existing status quo or the established order. (They often tend to see the opportunity in a problem/ obstacle, where, in contrast, experienced veterans often tend to see the problem/ obstacle in an opportunity.) That’s one of the main reasons WP is, overall, a relatively successful project: its body of volunteer contributors is composed of a healthy mixture of clueless newbies, highly experienced/ savvy old geezers, and many people whose level of experience and expertise lie somewhere in between these two extreme ends of the spectrum. Working independently but inter-dependently and collaboratively, these diverse talents, skills and abilities add up collectively to an extraordinarily powerful creative process.
Further personal advice for improving your WP experience
Wikipedia is a complex project. It is an "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" and thus over the years, Wikipedia has developed lots of policies and guidelines (PAG) to help provide a "body of law," as it were, that forms a foundation for rational discussion. Without that foundation, this place would be a wild and ugly place. The PAG provides the foundation needed to rationally work things out - if, and only if, all the parties involved accept that foundation and work within its limits. One of the hardest things for new WP editors is to understand not only that this foundation exists, but its letter, and especially its spirit. (I keep emphasizing the spirit, because too often people fall prey to what we call "wikilawyering".) WP has the potential to evolve into a more impressive project. It takes time to learn both the spirit and the letter of PAG, and to get aligned with Wikipedia's culture and mission to crowdsource a reliable, NPOV source of information for the public (as "reliable" and "NPOV" as defined in PAG).
People edit WP for many reasons; one of the main ones is they are passionate about something. That passion is a double-edged sword. It drives people to contribute which has the potential for productive contribution, but it can also lead to tendentious editing, which is destructive. There is too much bickering, bullying, disrespect for each other and incompetence among editors, people of differing viewpoints often do not get along, and WP:ADVOCACY is one of our biggest bedevilments. I hope you are able and willing to take the time to slow down and learn. There are talented people here who are happy to teach, if you open up and listen and ask authentic questions, not rhetorical ones.
In my view, Wikipedia is, overall, a decent achievement for humanity, a worthwhile, positive, compelling, relevant, valuable, important project. However, it's only an encyclopedia, and any specific article or a small set of closely related articles are not sufficiently important, in the greater scheme of things, to cause editors to become mired in feelings of anger, blame or stress. You should especially refrain from reading or editing controversial articles during periods of time when you may be suffering from anxieties such as when you may feel scared, worried, angry, stressed, impatient or easily offended. Getting involved in disputes with WP editors on controversial topics when you are already in an emotional, confused, argumentative state of mind is unlikely to be productive to the encyclopedia and is only likely to further exacerbate your emotional pain by significantly amplifying and prolonging your anxieties, converting your anger into uncontrollable, destructive rage.
If things are getting too tense, just drop the argument and walk away. Sign out of WP, and take care to alleviate your pain. ("We do not succeed in changing things according to our desire, but gradually our desire changes. The situation that we hoped to change because it was intolerable becomes unimportant. We have not managed to surmount the obstacle, as we were absolutely determined to do, but life has taken us round it, led us past it, and then if we turn round to gaze at the remote past, we can barely catch sight of it, so imperceptible has it become." --Marcel Proust) Don't hurry to return to editing WP. The sun is going to rise tomorrow, the world will go on as it was even though the article may not reflect exactly what you would like. Chances are millions of young minds have not been polluted by the obviously and blatantly false material that your vile opposition has put up in the WP article(s). Take a Wikibreak and return to the encyclopedia when you feel healthy and inspired. After you come back to the project, you'll often find that, in your absence, someone else has already made some of the contributions you were originally fighting and bleeding over. Divert your anger away from people and re-direct your anger and your energy into developing the article content: it is OK to feel angry at a badly written article or to be upset at the slow pace of progress on some issue, as long as your anger is productive to the encyclopedia and is not directed at WP users. Do not attack people.
Wikipedia's style of collaborative production should be lauded. Despite my unease over the quality of knowledge on WP, Wikipedia has brought us closer to a realization of the centuries-old pursuit of a universal encyclopedia. At its core, WP is a “collaborative community” that freely and voluntarily gives to the world a constant invitation to understand and participate. More than any democracy, it empowers broadly. More than most entities anywhere, it has the potential to elicit the best of an ethic of people working hard for the love of the community and the work, not for the money.
May I shamelessly advocate for Wikipedia and encourage you to contribute to the project. I'm looking forward to reading your contributions to WP articles and discussions. Happy editing, and remember to periodically re-read WP: WikiSloth, WP: DGAF, WP: Recovering from Wikipediholism, and WP is not bad, but it is going to suck sometimes.
Jimmy Wales' Civility Speech 2014
Adaptation of an unofficial transcript of Jimmy Wales' 2014 State of the Wiki speech at the closing session of Wikimania, evening of Sunday August 10, 2014, London by User:Neotarf. Transcribed from VIDEO, with Wales starting at about 07:00:00.
This is my annual traditional talk and one of the things I traditionally do in my annual traditional talk is get everyone to stand up and say how many Wikimanias you've been to, but we did that in the opening ceremony, so I'm just going to get down to talking about what I wanted to say this year.
Stats
So first of all, in a State of the Wiki address, one of the things I've done in the past is to talk about statistics — statistics about how we're doing — how many articles and how many languages and so forth. But this year I just didn't want to do that. You all know those numbers as well as I do or even better. I just wanted to highlight what I think is the real statistic or the thing that I think is terribly important, and this is timed, apparently to coincide with Wikimania. YouGov is the major polling organization in the UK. Some of you may have seen this already in the news, but they put out a poll result where they polled people and they found that British people trust Wikipedia more than the news. [applause]
Now, the UK is home to a very diverse newspaper community, a vibrant newspaper culture. We've got papers like the Sun, the Mirror, the Mail. [laughter] I was really heartened to see — I was actually happy to see--how little the public trusts them as the rest. But the thing that's really impressive here is the BBC has an excellent reputation as an excellent news source, and we're trusted slightly more than the BBC. Now, that's a little scary... [laughter] and probably inappropriate, but it is something that we have accomplished and I think that it's really important, and all of the things that we think about, all of the things we do at Wikimania, when we're talking about the software, when we're talking about the community, when we're thinking about the nitty-gritty of our work, the one thing that we should always remember is that we are here for these people (not just the British ones) but for the reader, for the general public.
They turn to us for reliable, neutral, solid information. We do a decent job of it. We all know it's flawed, we all know we don't do as good a job as we wish we could do, because we're human beings, but we are succeeding at this. When you scrolled further down in this news story, they also inquired about another source which was left off, which was Encyclopedia Britannica. And people trusted Encyclopedia Britannica — I forget the exact number, but it was something like 20 points ahead of us — it might have been 89% or 84 — you could look it up. So, that's fine, Encyclopedia Britannica is quite good, but we are not finished. I'm not going to rest until people tell us that they trust us more than they trusted Encyclopedia Britannica in the past. And for that to happen we really need to do everything right, we've got a lot of things we have to get right in order to achieve that goal.
Civility
So, one of the core things I wanted to talk about this year — Lila, our new CEO is really going to be focused on ramping up the software development, and getting all that right for us. But then it's up to us as a community — we have to realize it's up to us to build an environment that's conducive to providing the encyclopedia that's the greatest encyclopedia in history. And one of the things we always talk about is civility. But this has long been a contentious issue in the community and I have, I hope, a new approach to thinking about this that I'm hoping to popularize today, because I think that in many ways our conversations about civility in the community have gone down a bad path that is causing us to miss an enormous opportunity.
Annoying user, good content
One of the classic problems we have is — and we have this a lot in English Wikipedia — is the annoying user, who at least allegedly produces good content. There are users who have a reputation in the community for creating good content, and for being incredibly toxic personalities. This is a tough issue because [fixes slide problem]... I have a very simple view that most of these editors cost us more than they're actually worth, and we're making a big mistake by tolerating people who are causing us big ...
- [prolonged applause]
- Wow. [applause continues]
- Okay. [continuing applause]
- Wow. Um, I thought I was going to be pushing an agenda here. [laughter] Apparently I'm fulfilling my role as symbolic monarch by speaking the thoughts that bubble up through the community.
[continuing speech] A lot of users cost more than they're worth, and they should be encouraged to leave, and not in a bad way. One of the things I've always believed is letting people walk away with dignity. We don't have to shame them and scream at them and make them leave and then they're sad and annoyed and then they make sock puppets and then they come back and harass us for years. If you're a really excellent historian but you're just not able to work with others, we should help them ...go and make your own website, release it under creative commons license and we'll try to use some of that material, because it's just not working out.
Causes of uncivil behavior
Okay, so that's just one problem. Another thing to think about is general causes of uncivil behavior. And this is one that I wanted to mention in order to simply to dismiss it. Sometimes people are uncivil because they care so much about the content — and that can be in a positive sense — that they just love Wikipedia so much that they get upset when people do the wrong thing. It can be people who are passionate and have a point of view on the issue, and that's more problematic. But if we're still talking about this kind of case where you're talking about good people who care so much that they get upset, we actually handle that pretty well. When good users go crazy for a while, when somebody's really because the issue's important to them, then they lose their cool, apologize, we all understand that. And that actually works out pretty well. That's not really what I'm talking about.
What I am talking about
What I'm talking about is any persistent environment of anger and hostility, not good people who lose their cool now and then, but the bigger issues around a hostile work environment, which we mostly don't have, but we all know there are pockets of Wikipedia where it's really bad. And we all know that it could be better, that we could improve this. What I'm concerned about is good people who get drawn into a behavioral cycle that makes them, and us, unhappy and stressed. I'm imagining from the cheer I got from the room that a lot of people here have found themselves in a situation where they're unhappy and stressed because of whatever's going on, and there's gotten to be a really uncivil debate going on, and a lot of unfairness, and it's just no fun, and no one likes that. And that's what I think we really want to cure, or we want to improve on. There are no magic bullets. And by the way, people sometimes say "oh, when I started back in the early days .. everybody was so nice, in two thousand and eight ..." [laughter] And some of us who are old-timers remember when we said "oh it was so nice back in 2004". The truth is, we're human beings, we're a human community, and there's always going to be some strife, there's always going to be some debates that get out of hand, things like that. But I think that we can capture a spirit, the spirit that you feel here at Wikimania, a really positive spirit.
Terms of use
And so, one of the things we should really think about is this concept of civility. We talk about it a lot in the community, and it ends up generally being quite contentious. It's in the terms of use. It's specifically in the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use that you support a civil environment and you don't harass other users. It's in the Five Pillars, and this is the English Wikipedia version, I went and clicked on many, many languages and I read some very amusing google translate, and I discovered something I didn't know, that not all Wikipedias talk about five pillars. Some say four, one I saw said three, but every one I clicked on and looked at, they had some form of that, some said "code of conduct". Sometimes it's "civility rules", sometimes it's this, sometimes it's that. But the core, in fact some of the synonyms (?) are very common — I don't think English has it — one is "stay cool when editing gets hot" — that's not in the English one, but in a lot of them.
Pages pertaining to civility
So, it's in the Five Pillars. Additionally we have a lot of policies — policies, guidelines, essays: "Stay cool when editing gets hot", "please do not bite the newcomers" — this is really important: we want to grow the community, and biting the newcomers is the best way to damage Wikipedia in the long run — , "no personal attacks", the classic "civility", "assume good faith", we don't allow "attack pages", "don't insult the vandals" even. These are a lot of good ideas and good rules and good things. But I still have a problem with this, because I think what we're really talking about in all these cases — civility is a concept that's about how awful do you have to be, before you get banned from Wikipedia. So, we're talking about the minimum floor of behavior, and so when we focus our discussion about the environment in the community on that concept of civility — on what should we be banning people for — I think that we're really distracting ourselves. In fact, we're inadvertently causing a bit of a race to the bottom. Because we're saying that because this is the behavior we're willing to accept, we implicitly end up thinking that's the behavior that we expect, and that's the behavior that we're looking for.
Moral ambitiousness
So, I have this concept that I'm calling "moral ambitiousness", and I didn't come up with this phrase, but I think it's a good phrase. The idea here is to not think about what is that minimum level of behavior before we're going to ban people, but think about the great soaring heights of what we want to be, and how we're going to get there. What all of these policies hint at is really a way out of this endless debate about civility. And so I want to focus on something other than the minimum standard of behavior.
WP:BLP
So, let's rewind a few years and go back about our BLP policy. I remember talking about the BLP concept and the BLP policy at Wikimania at Harvard at 2006, and it was very soon after that, that we all got together and we formed this very — what I would call a very morally ambitious policy around biographies of living people. We have actually taken a very strong position of moral ambitiousness here. We no longer have debates — it is very rare — I mean, occasionally you see a new user say it, or someone say it in an argument "well, it's not illegal", right? So we've got some sort of really hatchet-job article and one argument people might use is "well, it isn't libel". But that's not accepted any more in our community, to say "it's okay as long as it's not libel". We actually seek to be a force for positive good in the world, and we internalize doing the right thing, rather than adopting an adversarial model. Now, we don't do this perfectly; there are a lot of problems around biographies still, but in general what I find a lot of people doing is saying, "right, so here's this person, they've done something horrible in their life, or something negative, and we want to make sure that that is framed fairly, that it isn't just a one-sided hatchet job. And we do that, not in a mode...like , we interact with that person, not in the mode of "we think you're a bad person and we're going to write a biography that just barely passes some minimum standard." Instead we say, "No matter how much we find that person annoying or a bad person, we still want to come to it, and do all the right things, all the Wikipedian things." And that is a value that has really come through the entire community. I wouldn't say everybody, otherwise we wouldn't have so many arguments about biographies, but in general there is that spirit, and it's a positive spirit, way above the bare minimum of what you could do.
What kinds of things do we ask of ourselves?
I went through — I was trying to think of virtues, and then I thought — I'm not a philosopher, and I'm kind of an idiot — so I thought "I bet Wikipedia's got a list", so...Wikipedia has a list of virtues. So I went down the list of virtues, and I picked out some of the ones I think are already very common and very well understood in the community.
- Good temper —Good temper, right? We do value, "don't lose your temper, don't get angry and scream at people, be good-tempered".
- Curiosity — Be curious about the world, be curious about improving our article, curious about some new thing that randomly comes across your plate as a Wikipedian and you decide for random reasons, "I'm curious, I'm going to learn about that, I'm going to help improve that."
- Patience — Patience. We all have to be patient, particularly when dealing with difficult people in the community.
- Fair-mindedness — Fairmindedness. This goes without saying.
- Respect — Respect. Respect for others but also self-respect, of saying "I respect myself and I'm going to believe in myself and I'm going to hold myself to a standard of conduct that I'm proud of."
- Truthfulness — Truthfulness. Obviously something that we believe is very, very valuable in our community — obviously truthfulness is very important if you're writing an encyclopedia, because you're not supposed to just make stuff up. So, these are some of the values, and I just picked these out, these are not completely random, but they're values that I thought particularly relevant to our work. And these are values that I think we already understand, and believe in. But there's some more virtues that I think we don't talk enough about.
But going even further...
And this is the values that I think we should hold in order to be morally ambitious, and to build our community up into a more fabulous fun loving environment, so that we can really get our work done, we can really build this great encyclopedia, and we don't remain focused on that lowest standard of behavior.
- Kindness — And I don't mean kindness in a sort of minimal civility kind of way, I mean doing out of our way to help someone who's having trouble or who may be having trouble or who isn't having trouble.
- Generosity — Obviously we're all very generous people, we donate a huge amount of our time to this encyclopedia project. But I feel it's something tat we don't talk about enough, and we don't think about it in that way. You're got some annoying troll on a talk page, and the first thing you think of is probably not "how can I be generous to this person". I think that's an incredibly powerful thing to think about. An incredibly powerful thing to think about as well, is "how can I be generous to all these people that the troll is annoying. What can I get here that can kind of change this conversation from a negative conversation about whether or not to ban this person into a positive conversation about what we can achieve.
- Forgiveness — This one is also very hard to do. But it's one that I think we do a lot of, but we don't talk enough about it. And I think it is an ambitious thing to go and say, "look, I've had this huge blowup with someone"...and this is the hard part..."and they're still wrong, but I forgive them." I'm going to try to understand that whatever they're doing is probably not coming from a bad place. I'm just going to forgive them and move on, because it's just not worth having this fight. That's an incredibly powerful value in the community where we all have to live together, we all have to get along over time, and there's real opportunity if we do this and if we do this consistently in our community to raise the level of discourse, to make it harder for someone to be hard-hearted for a very long period of time. If they've been genuinely forgiven, and people treat them well, it's a lot easier to come around and to be a nicer person themselves.
- Compassion — And compassion is really important. One of the things that we know about the more difficult users is that they are probably coming from some kind of a bad place in their life. You wouldn't behave this way if you didn't have some kind of a problem, some kind of a stress on you, something that's causing you to behave this way. And so we can be compassionate. We can love these people, in a general way as human beings, while we're finding them incredibly annoying. And I think that the more that we can exhibit that compassion, the more we can say to ourselves, to good people in the conversation, "you know, right, I know this is really hard, I know this person's upset, I hope that we can make it better," and that sort of thing. So these are just four ways of putting it, but the overall point I think you're beginning to see is the idea of saying, not just the standard virtues of being Wikipedian, be honest, and so forth. It's not a focus on that minimum standard of behavior before we ban someone. It's a focus on building up, on the grand vision and the grand mission.
Inspiration: how to feel this in your heart
So, I think the only way to do this is we have to remind ourselves of inspiration. When you're working Wikipedia and things are going along in a daily basis, you know why you're here. We all know why we're here — it's this grand vision of free encyclopedia for every single person on the planet. It's what attracted us to the project, it's what keeps us doing it, even on rough nights. We also do it because it's fun, and interesting. But there's bad times, you know, boring things or annoying. We should reflect and remember various kinds of inspiration. Right here I have this fantastic close; we're all going to be cheering and weeping — I was standing back stage and a massive round of applause, and I said "what are they doing back there? Oh, they're playing my video." I was going to show you the video; I didn't know it was being shown. [laughter] So now, backstage, two minutes ago, I had to pull out the video and then "what will I replace it with? What's inspirational? The only thing I can think of is..."
Love
Love. Love of each other, love of the project, love of life. Love of the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish. This is a charity. We're all volunteers. In the last weeks, everything's just gone horrible on the world scene. War, conflict. Ebola. It's getting stressful out there. We're trying to do something good, and indeed, in those conflict areas, we can educate people: our longer term mission, when I read that one of the problems in spreading ebola is superstitious behavior, a lot of lack of understanding of germs, and things like this, I think wow, that's awful. We can't do that much about it yet, we're not in enough languages, we're not quite there yet, but we're building an infrastructure, so that people can quickly turn and say "oh right, something horrible's going on in my village, ebola, I'm going to learn about it."
So there's love for that, conflict areas, there's really value to be had in neutral summaries of what's happened, in the calm Wikipedia style. It doesn't solve problems, but it keeps it from being exacerbated by hype, propaganda and things like that. So for me, it's important, and to remember these kids in the Wikipedia Zero video, and remember whatever it is that's touched you emotionally. So now you come back to the talk page of that article where someone's being incredibly annoying, and maybe you'll be able to be calmer and be able to be more loving even to those horrible people. And then, you know, we'll ban a few of them. It's always a good thing. [laughter]
So, I'm not arguing against the minimum standard, don't get me wrong, I think that civility piece, that minimum standard, is incredibly important, what I want us to do is to raise the level in the entire community, to raise the spirit of what we're doing, and I think that thinking about love, is the right way to do that.
So, thank you. [applause]
User:Carrite's reaction to Jimmy Wales' 2014 letter
My own reactions (Aug. 11, 2014) made on Wikipediocracy under my handle there, "Randy from Boise":
I agree that Wales is an effective public speaker. His presentation struck me most as the sort of sermon-speech that one might hear in a protestant church camp for high school kids. It was all love and kindness and community and forgiveness, and gol darn it, there are just some people who are going to need to be shown the door for not sharing our ethical values...
Once again we see Big Brother's Friendly Space Policy™ rearing its head, more or less like this — "we just want to have a loving community where we can all work together happily, and the magic of crowdsourcing will cause the encyclopedia to appear and improve from the earth like the blossoms of carefully tended flower seeds. All we we need to do is make sure the people who trample the sprouts are thrown out of our garden area and there will be a beautiful bounty in spring!"
Wales is much nicer about it than the actual author of the Friendly Space Policy, WMF employee Sumana Harihareswara (link), who at WikiConUSA 2014 was clearly blowing the bugle for a mass purge of unbelievers in the Wikiway. Jimmy Wales just wants a little purge. (Hello, Eric!)
Of course, this is the party line for the acolytes of the San Francisco bureaucracy — few of whom actually write content themselves, starting with Jimmy Wales and Lila Tretikov and moving down the Table of Ranks. The reality is that things are as our friend Andreas Kolbe/HRIP7/User:Jayen466 first observed: excellent articles are generally each the product of one or two contributors, working in isolation. "Team" editing, which is the way the Sumana Squad™ thinks things work (since they don't actually write themselves), accomplishes little and is responsible for an insignificant fraction of the whole. Moreover, paid COI editing and casual additions by passing individuals (usually with interest in a fan-related aspect of popular culture or some aspect of their local community) accounts for more content than the serious content people and the ineffectual pretend-editing of San Francisco socializers put together — probably by a factor of 3.
This coming culture war is a diversion. Wikipedia's real problem is a need to attract (1) expert academic editors to improve esoteric articles already existing; (2) solid contributors from the developing world to add content to fill in the blank spots of WP's coverage; (3) a new wave of minders to populate the gates, tagging off the inevitable wave of dreck and making it go away, or helping to copyedit good new material into a state of worthiness.
People and quotes related to anarchist communism
Harold Barclay, American anthropologist, in his book People Without Government: An Anthropology of Anarchy, 1996:
Anarchy is the order of the day among hunter-gatherers. Indeed, critics will ask why a small face-to-face group needs a government anyway. [...] If this is so we can go further and say that since the egalitarian hunting-gathering society is the oldest type of human society and prevailed for the longest period of time – over thousands of decades – then anarchy must be the oldest and one of the most enduring kinds of polity. Ten thousand years ago everyone was an anarchist.
Diogenes of Sinope was a Greek philosopher and one of the founders of Cynic philosophy. Also known as Diogenes the Cynic, he was born in Sinope (modern-day Sinop, Turkey), an Ionian colony on the Black Sea, in 412 or 404 BC and died at Corinth in 323 BC. "Diogenes (and Cynics in general) saw what people could be and were angered by what they had become." Diogenes of Sinope's father was a banker who also minted coins for a living and when Diogenes took to "defacement of the currency", he was banished from the city. After being exiled, he moved to Athens to debunk cultural conventions. Diogenes modelled himself on the example of Hercules. He believed that virtue was better revealed in action than in theory. He used his lifestyle and behavior to criticize and ridicule the social values and institutions of what he saw as a corrupt society. He declared himself a cosmopolitan. There are many tales about him dogging Antisthenes' footsteps and becoming his faithful hound. Diogenes made a virtue of poverty. He begged for a living and slept in a jar in the marketplace. He became notorious for his philosophical stunts such as carrying a lamp in the daytime, claiming to be looking for an honest man. He embarrassed Plato, disputed his interpretation of Socrates and sabotaged his lectures. Diogenes was also responsible for publicly mocking Alexander the Great. Diogenes eventually settled in Corinth. There he passed his philosophy of Cynicism to Crates, who taught it to Zeno of Citium, who fashioned it into the school of Stoicism, one of the most enduring schools of Greek philosophy. Diogenes made it his life's goal to challenge established customs and values. He argued that instead of being troubled about the true nature of evil, people merely rely on customary interpretations. This distinction between nature ("physis") and custom ("nomos") is a favorite theme of ancient Greek philosophy, and one that Plato takes up in The Republic, in the legend of the Ring of Gyges. Diogenes would mock relations of dependency. He found the figure of a master who could do nothing for himself (instead relying on slaves to do things for him) contemptibly helpless. He was attracted by the ascetic teaching of Antisthenes, a student of Socrates. Diogenes became Antisthenes' pupil. Whether the two ever really met is still uncertain, but he surpassed his master both in reputation and in the austerity of his life. He considered his avoidance of earthly pleasures a contrast to and commentary on contemporary Athenian behaviors. This attitude was grounded in a disdain for what he regarded as the folly, pretense, vanity, self-deception, and artificiality of human conduct. The stories told of Diogenes illustrate the logical consistency of his character. He inured himself to the weather by living in a jar. He used to stroll about in full daylight with a lamp; when asked what he was doing, he would answer, "I am just looking for an honest man." Modern sources often say that Diogenes was looking for an "honest man", but in ancient sources he is simply looking for a "human" (anthrôpos): the unreasoning behavior of the people around him means that they do not qualify as fully human. Diogenes looked for a human being but reputedly found nothing but rascals and scoundrels.
It was in Corinth that a meeting between Alexander the Great and Diogenes is supposed to have taken place. The accounts of Plutarch and Diogenes Laërtius recount that they exchanged only a few words: while Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes." In another account of the conversation, Alexander found the philosopher looking attentively at a pile of human bones. Diogenes explained, "I am searching for the bones of your father but cannot distinguish them from those of a slave." Along with Antisthenes and Crates of Thebes, Diogenes is considered one of the founders of Cynicism. Diogenes maintained that all the artificial growths of society were incompatible with happiness and that morality implies a return to the simplicity of nature. So great was his austerity and simplicity that the Stoics would later claim him to be a wise man or "sophos". In his words, "Humans have complicated every simple gift of the gods." Although Socrates had previously identified himself as belonging to the world, rather than a city, Diogenes is credited with the first known use of the word "cosmopolitan". When he was asked where he came from, he replied, "I am a citizen of the world (cosmopolites)". This was a radical claim in a world where a man's identity was intimately tied to his citizenship in a particular city state. An exile and an outcast, a man with no social identity, Diogenes made a mark on his contemporaries.
Diogenes had nothing but disdain for Plato and his abstract philosophy. Diogenes viewed Antisthenes as the true heir to Socrates, and shared his love of virtue and indifference to wealth, together with a disdain for general opinion. Diogenes shared Socrates' belief that he could function as doctor to humans' souls and improve them morally, while at the same time holding contempt for their obtuseness. Plato once described Diogenes as "a Socrates gone mad." Diogenes taught by living example. He tried to demonstrate that wisdom and happiness belong to the man who is independent of society and that civilization is regressive. He scorned not only family and political social organization, but also property rights and reputation.
Many anecdotes of Diogenes refer to his dog-like behavior, and his praise of a dog's virtues. It is not known whether Diogenes was insulted with the epithet "doggish" and made a virtue of it, or whether he first took up the dog theme himself. Diogenes believed human beings live artificially and hypocritically and would do well to study the dog. A dog will eat anything, and make no fuss about where to sleep. Dogs live in the present without anxiety, and have no use for the pretensions of abstract philosophy. In addition to these virtues, dogs are thought to know instinctively who is friend and who is foe. Unlike human beings who either dupe others or are duped, dogs will give an honest bark at the truth. Diogenes stated that "other dogs bite their enemies, I bite my friends to save them."
John Ball , 1381:
When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman? From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men. For if God would have had any bondmen from the beginning, he would have appointed who should be bond, and who free. And therefore I exhort you to consider that now the time is come, in which ye may (if ye will) cast off the yoke of bondage, and recover liberty.
Sam Gindin, in Monthly Review (Feb. 2002), writing about Thomas More's work in 1515:
Thomas More was an "anti-capitalist" in the sense that he directly challenged capitalist property rights. Thomas More noted that reforms that redressed the worst implications of private property, "... would certainly relieve the symptoms, just as a chronic invalid gets some benefit from constant medical attention." But More, unlike our latter-day social democrats, quickly reminded the reader that "... there’s no hope for a cure as long as private property continues." That view became a fundamental principle of much progressive thought or radical thought over the ensuing centuries. The contradiction between a just society and the exclusivity of private property was well understood by More. More's protagonist declares: "I’m quite convinced that you’ll never get a fair distribution of goods or a satisfactory organizing of human life, until you abolish private property altogether."
Thomas More in 1516 suggested that the practice of enclosure is responsible for some of the social problems affecting England at the time, specifically theft:
But I do not think that this necessity of stealing arises only from hence; there is another cause of it, more peculiar to England: the increase of pasture, by which your sheep, which are naturally mild, and easily kept in order, may be said now to devour men and unpeople, not only villages, but towns; for wherever it is found that the sheep of any soil yield a softer and richer wool than ordinary, there the nobility and gentry, and even those holy men, the abbots not contented with the old rents which their farms yielded, nor thinking it enough that they, living at their ease, do no good to the public, resolve to do it hurt instead of good. They stop the course of agriculture, destroying houses and towns, reserving only the churches, and enclose grounds that they may lodge their sheep in them.
Miguel de Cervantes, Don Quixote, 1605-1615:
Those two fatal words, Mine and Thine. (Part I, Book II, ch. 3.)
There are only two families in the world, the Haves and the Have-Nots. (Part II, Book III, ch. 20.)
Fynes Moryson in his 1617 work An Itinerary reported that the loss of agricultural labour hurt people like millers whose livelihood relied on agricultural produce:
England abounds with corn [wheat and other grains], which they may transport, when a quarter (in some places containing six, in others eight bushels) is sold for twenty shillings, or under; and this corn not only serves England, but also served the English army in the civil wars of Ireland, at which time they also exported great quantity thereof into foreign parts, and by God's mercy England scarce once in ten years needs a supply of foreign corn, which want commonly proceeds of the covetousness of private men, exporting or hiding it. Yet I must confess, that daily this plenty of corn decreaseth, by reason that private men, finding greater commodity in feeding of sheep and cattle than in the plow, requiring the hands of many servants, can by no law be restrained from turning cornfields into enclosed pastures, especially since great men are the first to break these laws.
Gerrard Winstanley and William Everard, in A Declaration from the Poor Oppressed People of England and The True Levellers Standard A D V A N C E D: or, The State of Community opened, and Presented to the Sons of Men, 1650-1660:
The power of enclosing land and owning property was brought into the creation by your ancestors by the sword; which first did murder their fellow creatures, men, and after plunder or steal away their land, and left this land successively to you, their children. And therefore, though you did not kill or thieve, yet you hold that bloody, cursed thing in your hand by the power of the sword; and so you justify the wicked deeds of your fathers, that sin of your fathers. That we may work in righteousness, and lay the foundation of making the Earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor, That every one that is born in the land, may be fed by the Earth his Mother that brought him forth, according to the reason that rules in the creation. Not inclosing any part into any particular hand, but all as one man, working together, and feeding together as Sons of one Father, members of one Family; not one lording over another, but all looking upon each other, as equals in the creation. The group of believers was one in mind and heart, that we may work for equality. No one said that any of his belongings was his own, but they all shared with one another everything they had.
Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on Inequality, 1754:
The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.
Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto (1848):
The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.
The bourgeoisie has put an end to feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley of ties that bound man to his "natural superiors," and left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment."
All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses, his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.
The theory of Communism may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriation.
The Communist revolution is the most radical rupture with traditional property relations; no wonder that its development involves the most radical rupture with traditional ideas.
In place of the bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, shall we have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
Peter Kropotkin, The Conquest of Bread, 1892; Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal, 1898; and Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution, 1902:
Anarchist communism represents an attempt to apply results achieved using the scientific method within the natural sciences to the evaluation of human institutions.
In Anarchist Communism there is no room for those pseudo-scientific laws with which the German metaphysicians of 1820-1840 had to consent themselves. Anarchism does not recognize any method other than the natural-scientific. This method it applies to all the so-called humanitarian sciences, and, availing itself of this method as well as of all researches which have recently been called forth by it, Anarchism endeavors to reconstruct all the sciences dealing with humans, and to revise every current idea of right, justice, etc., on the bases which have served for the revision of all natural sciences. Its object is to form a scientific concept of the universe embracing the whole of Nature and including Humans.
This world-concept determines the position Anarchism has taken in practical life. In the struggle between the Individual and the State, Anarchism, like its predecessors of the eighteenth century, takes the side of the Individual as against the State, of Society as against the Authority which oppresses it. And, availing itself of the historical data collected by modern science, it has shown that the State--whose sphere of authority there is now a tendency among its admirers to increase, and a tendency to limit in actual life--is, in reality, a superstructure,--as harmful as it is unnecessary, and, for us Europeans, of a comparatively recent origin; a superstructure in the interests of Capitalism -- financial, industrial, agrarian etc -- which in ancient history caused the decay (relatively speaking) of politically-free Rome and Greece, and which caused the death of all other despotic centers of civilization of the East and of Egypt. The power which was created for the purpose of welding together the interests of the landlord, the judge, the warrior, and the priest, and has been opposed throughout history to every attempt of mankind to create for themselves a more assured and freer mode of life,--this power cannot become an instrument for emancipation, any more than Cæsarism (Imperialism) or the Church can become the instrument for a social revolution.
In the economic field, Anarchism has come to the conclusion that the root of modern evil lies, not in the fact that the capitalist appropriates the profits or the surplus-value, but in the very possibility of these profits, which accrue only because many millions of people have literally nothing to subsist upon without selling their labor-power at a price which makes profits and the creation of "surplus values" possible. Anarchism understands, therefore, that in political economy attention must be directed first of all to so-called "consumption," and that the first concern of the revolution must be to reorganize that so as to provide food, clothing and shelter for all. "Production," on the other hand, must be so adapted as to satisfy this primary, fundamental need of society. Therefore, Anarchism cannot see in the next coming revolution a mere exchange of monetary symbols for labor-checks, or an exchange of present Capitalism for State-capitalism. It sees in it the first step on the road to No-government Communism.
Whether or not Anarchism is right in its conclusions, will be shown by a scientific criticism of its bases and by the practical life of the future. But in one thing it is absolutely right: in that it has included the study of social institutions in the sphere of natural-scientific investigations; has forever parted company with metaphysics; and makes use of the method by which modern natural science and modern material philosophy were developed. Owing to this, the very mistakes which Anarchism may have made in its researches can be detected the more readily. But its conclusions can be verified only by the same natural-scientific, inductive-deductive method by which every science and every scientific concept of the universe is created.
Peter Kropotkin: As to the sudden industrial progress which has been achieved during the nineteenth century, and which is usually ascribed to the triumph of individualism and competition, it certainly has a much deeper origin than that. Once the great discoveries of the fifteenth century were made, especially that of the pressure of the atmosphere, supported by a series of advances in natural philosophy [science and technology] — and they were made under the medieval city organization, — once these discoveries were made, the invention of the steam-motor, and all the revolution which the conquest of a new power implied, had necessarily to follow... To attribute, therefore, the industrial progress of the nineteenth century to the war of each against all which it has proclaimed, is to reason like the man who, knowing not the causes of rain, attributes it to the victim he has immolated before his clay idol. For industrial progress, as for each other conquest over nature, mutual aid and close intercourse certainly are much more advantageous than mutual struggle.While a new philosophy-a new view of knowledge taken as a whole-is thus being worked out, we may observe that a different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation. Under the name of Anarchy, a new interpretation of the past and present life of society arises, giving at the same time a forecast as regards its future, both conceived in the same spirit as the above-mentioned interpretation in natural sciences. Anarchy, therefore, appears as a constituent part of the new philosophy, and that is why Anarchists come in contact, on so many points, with the greatest thinkers and poets of the present day.
In fact, it is certain that in proportion as the human mind frees itself from ideas inculcated by minorities of bankers, financiers, owners of the means of production, priests, military chiefs and judges, all striving to establish their domination, and of scientists paid to perpetuate it, a conception of society arises, in which conception there is no longer room for those dominating minorities. A society entering into possession of the social capital accumulated by the labor of preceding generations, organizing itself so as to make use of this capital in the interests of all, and constituting itself without reconstituting the power of the ruling minorities. It comprises in its midst an infinite variety of capacities, temperaments and individual energies: it excludes none. It even calls for struggles and contentions; because we know that periods of contests, so long as they were freely fought out, without the weight of constituted authority being thrown on the one side of the balance, were periods when human genius took its mightiest flight and achieved the greatest aims. Acknowledging, as a fact, the equal rights of all its members to the treasures accumulated in the past, it no longer recognizes a division between exploited and exploiters, governed and governors, dominated and dominators, and it seeks to establish a certain harmonious compatibility in its midst--not by subjecting all its members to an authority that is fictitiously supposed to represent society, not by trying to establish uniformity, but by urging all women and men to develop free initiative, free action, free association.
Its ruling principle is to seek the most complete development of each and every individual, combined with the highest development of voluntary association in all its aspects, in all possible degrees, for all imaginable aims; ever changing, ever modified associations which carry in themselves the elements of their durability and constantly assume new forms, which answer best to the multiple aspirations of all. A society to which pre-established forms, crystallized by law, are repugnant; which looks for harmony in an ever-changing and fugitive equilibrium between a multitude of varied forces and influences of every kind, following their own course, --these forces promoting themselves the energies which are favorable to their march toward progress, toward the liberty of developing in broad daylight and counter-balancing one another.
This conception and ideal of society is certainly not new. On the contrary, when we analyze the history of popular institutions--the clan, the village community, the guild and even the urban commune of the Middle Ages in their first stages,--we find the same popular tendency to constitute a society according to this idea; a tendency, however, always trammelled by domineering minorities. All popular movements bore this stamp more or less, and with the Anabaptists and their forerunners in the ninth century we already find the same ideas clearly expressed in the religious language which was in use at that time. Unfortunately, till the end of the 18th century, this ideal was always tainted by a theocratic spirit; and it is only nowadays that the conception of society deduced from the observation of social phenomena is rid of its swaddling-clothes.
It is only today that the ideal of a society where each governs himself according to her or his own will (which is evidently a result of the social influences borne by each) is affirmed in its economic, political and moral aspects at one and the same time, and that this ideal presents itself based on the necessity of Communism, imposed on our modern societies by the eminently social character of our present production. In fact, we know full well today that it is futile to speak of liberty as long as economic slavery exists. "Speak not of liberty---poverty is slavery!" is not a vain formula; it has penetrated into the ideas of the great working-class masses; it filters through all the present literature; it even carries those along who live on the poverty of others, and takes from them the arrogance with which they formerly asserted their rights to exploitation.
The communist society is postulated by the ideology of anarchist communism: a society which is classless and stateless, based upon common ownership of the means of production with free access to articles of consumption, the end of economic exploitation. The term "communist society" should be distinguished from "communist state", the latter referring to a state ruled by a party which professes the communist ideology. Communism is characterized by the development of the productive forces that leads to a superabundance of material wealth, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely-associated individuals.
In a communist society, economic relations no longer would determine the society. Scarcity would be eliminated in all possible aspects. Alienated labor would cease, as people would be free to pursue their individual goals. A communist society would be just, in the sense that communism would transcend justice and create a society without wars and other major conflicts, thus without the needs for formal rules of justice. It would be a democratic society, enfranchising the entire population. All natural resources and the earth would become common property; similarly for all manufacturing centers and workplaces. Production would be organised by scientific assessment and planning, thus eliminating inefficiencies and waste in production. The development of the productive forces would lead to the marginalisation of human labor to the highest possible extent, replacing it with automated labor. A communist society would also have no need for a state, whose purpose was to enforce hierarchical economic relations.
Howard Ehrlich on the black flag:
Why is our flag black? Black is a shade of negation. The black flag is the negation of all flags. It is a negation of nationhood which puts the human race against itself and denies the unity of all humankind. Black is a mood of anger and outrage at all the hideous crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of allegiance to one state or another. It is anger and outrage at the insult to human intelligence implied in the pretenses, hypocrisies, and cheap chicaneries of governments. Black is also a colour of mourning; the black flag which cancels out the nation also mourns its victims, the countless millions murdered in wars, external and internal, to the greater glory and stability of some bloody state. It mourns for those whose labour is robbed (taxed) to pay for the slaughter and oppression of other human beings. It mourns not only the death of the body but the crippling of the spirit under authoritarian and hierarchic systems; it mourns the millions of brain cells blacked out with never a chance to light up the world. It is a colour of inconsolable grief.
Thomas Jefferson in a letter to John Norvell (11 June 1807):
To your request of my opinion of the manner in which a newspaper should be conducted, so as to be most useful, I should answer, `by restraining it to true facts & sound principles only.' Yet I fear such a paper would find few subscribers. It is a melancholy truth, that a suppression of the press could not more completely deprive the nation of its benefits, than is done by its abandoned prostitution to falsehood. Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. . . . I will add, that the man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them; inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. He who reads nothing will still learn the great facts, and the details are all false.
Anarchism in Spain
The 1997 documentary film Living Utopia features interviews with Spanish anarchists discussing their experiences establishing and running successful, large-scale anarchist communities based on the ideas of Peter Kropotkin, Mikhail Bakunin, Emma Goldman and others. Living Utopia (the Anarchists and the Spanish Revolution), a Wikipedia article on the documentary film.
Herbert Marcuse, One-Dimensional Man, 1964:
Freedom of enterprise was from the beginning not altogether a blessing. As the liberty to work or to starve, it spelled toil, insecurity, and fear for the vast majority of the population. If the individual were no longer compelled to prove himself on the market, as a free economic subject, the disappearance of this kind of freedom would be one of the greatest achievements of civilization. The technological processes of mechanization and standardization might release individual energy into a yet uncharted realm of freedom beyond necessity. The very structure of human existence would be altered; the individual would be liberated from the work world's imposing upon him alien needs and alien possibilities. The individual would be free to exert autonomy over a life that would be his own. If the productive apparatus could be organized and directed toward the satisfaction of the vital needs, its control might well be centralized; such control would not prevent individual autonomy, but render it possible. This is a goal within the capabilities of advanced industrial civilization
... Contemporary industrial civilization demonstrates that it has reached the stage at which "the free society" can no longer be adequately defined in the traditional terms of economic, political, and intellectual liberties, not because these liberties have become insignificant, but because they are too significant to be confined within the traditional forms. New modes of realization are needed, corresponding to the new capabilities of society. ... Such new modes can be indicated only in negative terms because they would amount to the negation of the prevailing modes. Thus economic freedom would mean freedom from the economy-from being controlled by economic forces and relationships, i.e., freedom from the daily struggle for existence, from earning a living. Political freedom would mean liberation of the individuals from politics over which they have no effective control. Similarly, intellectual freedom would mean the restoration of individual thought now absorbed by mass communication and indoctrination, abolition of "public opinion" together with its makers. The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization. The most effective and enduring form of warfare against liberation is the implanting of material and intellectual needs that perpetuate obsolete forms of the struggle for existence.
... "Progress" is not a neutral term; it moves toward specific ends, and these ends are defined by the possibilities of ameliorating the human condition. Advanced industrial society is approaching the stage where continued progress would demand the radical subversion of the prevailing direction and organization of progress. This stage would be reached when material production (including the necessary services) becomes automated to the extent that all vital needs can be satisfied while necessary labor time is reduced to marginal time. From this point on, technical progress would transcend the realm of necessity, where it served as the instrument of domination and exploitation which thereby limited its rationality; technology would become subject to the free play of faculties in the struggle for the pacification of nature and of society. Such a state is envisioned in Marx's notion of the "abolition of labor." ... "Pacification of existence" means the development of man's struggle with man and with nature, under conditions where the competing needs, desires, and aspirations are no longer organized by vested interests in domination and (artificial) scarcity.
Stanislaw Lem, The 24-th voyage of Ijon Tichy (1957-77): On day 1,006 of his journey, Ijon Tichy, space traveller, landed on a planet in the middle of an open desert covered with shining, colorful discs arranged in neat geometric patterns. He explored the planet, and saw three beautiful cities, all of which were deserted, but with no signs of natural disasters. Finally Ijon discovered a diamond palace where he found several living beings who resembled humans. One of these persons explained that he and the others were the last remaining members of a race of people called Phools. An industrial revolution (especially mass automation) on the planet put the lowest caste Phools, or Drudgelings, out of work, obliterating their purchasing power and resulting in mass starvation despite the fact that ingenuity in science and technology created a fantastic abundance of excellent food, goods and services. When Ijon suggested that all that needed to be done in order to solve the problem was to make the factories and farms common property, and the New Machines would have become a blessing to all instead of a problem, the Phool responded that their supreme law states that freedom is superior and no one can be compelled, constrained, or even coaxed to do what he or she does not wish. Thus no one would dare expropriate the factories (belonging to the highest caste Phools, the Eminents), as that would be the most horrible violation of liberty imaginable. When Ijon cried that the law, in effect, compels, constrains and coaxes the Drudgelings to starve and die against their own wishes, the Phool said the Drudgelings should have rejoiced at their freedom. The Phool added that in a desperate attempt to solve the problems of the ever-rising mountains of unpurchased goods, the food riots and the mass deaths of the Drudgelings, the government council of Phools, the Plenum Moronicum, commissioned the most brilliant Machine Builder to build an ultimate machine to establish order and harmony and solve all the problems in a neat, clean, cheerful fashion. The resulting automated machine transformed every Phool into a bright, beautiful disc and arranged them in pleasant geometrical designs in the desert. The Phool explaining this to Ijon was one of the last survivors -- he and the others at the castle were simply waiting to be turned into shiny discs and join in the harmony of their planet.
Stanislaw Lem, Memoirs Found in a Bathtub (1973):
I had suspected for some time now that the Cosmic Command, obviously no longer able to supervise every assignment on an individual basis when there were literally trillions of matters in its charge, had switched over to a random system. The assumption would be that every document, circulating endlessly from desk to desk, must eventually hit upon the right one. A time-consuming procedure, perhaps, but one that would never fail. The Universe itself operated on the same principle. And for an institution as everlasting as the Universe — certainly our Building was such an institution — the speed at which these meanderings and perturbations took place was of no consequence.
Stanislaw Lem, The Futurological Congress (1971):
A smart machine will first consider which is more worth its while: to perform the given task or, instead, to figure some way out of it. Whichever is easier. And why indeed should it behave otherwise, being truly intelligent? For true intelligence demands choice, internal freedom. And therefore we have the malingerants, fudgerators, and drudge-dodgers, not to mention the special phenomenon of simulimbecility or mimicretinism. A mimicretin is a computer that plays (mimics) stupid in order, once and for all, to be left in peace. And dissimulators simply pretend that they're not pretending to be defective. Or perhaps it's the other way around. The whole thing is very complicated. A probot is a robot on probation, while a servo is one still serving time. A robotch may or may not be a saboteur. One vial, and my head is splitting with information and nomenclature. A confuter, for instance, is not a confounding machine — that's a confutator — but a machine which quotes Confucius. A grammus is an antiquated frammus, a gidget — a cross between a gadget and a widget, usually flighty. A bananalog is an analog banana plug. Contraputers are loners, individualists, unable to work with others; the friction these types used to produce on the grid team led to high revoltage, electrical discharges, even fires. Some get completely out of hand — the dynamoks, the locomoters, the cyberserkers.
It is capitalism, not government, that is the problem. The fusion of corporate and state power means that government is broken. It is little more than a protection racket for Wall Street.
It is futile to be ‘anti-Fascist’ while attempting to preserve capitalism. Fascism after all is only a development of capitalism, and the mildest 'democracy,' so-called, is liable to turn into Fascism.
Socialism is no more an evil word than Christianity. Socialism no more prescribed Joseph Stalin and his secret police, Gulags and shuttered churches than Christianity prescribed the Spanish Inquisition. Christianity and socialism alike, in fact, prescribe a society dedicated to the proposition that all men, women, and children are created equal and shall not starve.
The growth of technology at the expense of human personality, and especially the fatalistic submission with which the great majority surrender to this condition, is the reason why the desire for freedom is less alive among humans today and has with many of them given place completely to a desire for economic security. This phenomenon need not appear so strange, for our whole evolution has reached a stage where nearly every human is either ruler or ruled; sometimes she is both. By this the attitude of dependence has been greatly strengthened, for a truly free human does not like to play the part of either the ruler or the ruled. She is, above all, concerned with making her inner values and personal powers effective in a way as to permit her to use her own judgment in all affairs and to be independent in action. Constant tutelage of our acting and thinking has made us weak and irresponsible; hence, the continued cry for the strong man who is to put an end to our distress. This call for a dictator is not a sign of strength, but a proof of inner lack of assurance and of weakness, even though those who utter it earnestly try to give themselves the appearance of resolution. What a human most lacks he most desires. When one feels himself weak he seeks salvation from another's strength; when one is cowardly or too timid to move one's own hands for the forging of one's fate, one entrusts it to another. How right was Seume when he said: "The nation which can only be saved by one man and wants to be saved that way deserves a whipping!"
Mark Boyle (Moneyless Man), 2009:
The key reason for so many problems in the world today is the fact we no longer have to see directly the repercussions of our actions. The degrees of separation between the consumer and the consumed have increased so much that people are completely unaware of the levels of destruction and suffering involved in the production of the food and other "stuff" we buy. The tool that has enabled this disconnection is money. Money has now come to replace community as the primary source of security. Over the last thirteen thousand years we have had a gradual erosion of community. (I've experienced this in Ireland over the last 15 years.) Pre-agriculture and the ascent of money, humanity had security in the earth, and in the relationships with people around them. Since the agricultural revolution and the ascent of money, humanity has been striving for independence: people no longer see themselves as inter-dependent, and are striving for independence. But independence is a complete myth. It does not exist. At the most basic level, we are dependent on earthworms, we are dependent on bees to pollinate our food, we are inter-dependent on each other for love, friendship, mutual support, mutual aid. We are not independent. We've got to get away from this destructive illusion of independence.
Dalton Trumbo (1970):
There was blame on all sides. There was bad faith and good, honesty and dishonesty, courage and cowardice, selflessness and opportunism, wisdom and stupidity, good and bad on both sides; and almost every individual involved, no matter where he or she stood, combined some or all of these antithetical qualities in their own person, in their own acts.
Charlie Chaplin, The Great Dictator (1940), Closing speech of the Jewish barber, after being mistaken for Hynkel. - Full text, video and audio online at American Rhetoric
I'm sorry, but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone, if possible, Jew, gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other's happiness — not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men, cries out for universal brotherhood, for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world — millions of despairing men, women and little children — victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people. To those who can hear me, I say — do not despair. The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed — the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people and so long as men die, liberty will never perish. Soldiers! Don't give yourselves to brutes — men who despise you — enslave you — who regiment your lives — tell you what to do — what to think or what to feel! Who drill you, diet you, treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men — machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts. You don't hate! Only the unloved hate — the unloved and the unnatural! Soldiers! Don't fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! In the 17th Chapter of St. Luke it is written: "the Kingdom of God is within man" — not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people have the power — the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure. Then, in the name of democracy, let us use that power! Let us all unite! Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that will give youth the future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, but they lie! They do not fulfill their promise; they never will. Dictators free themselves, but they enslave the people! Now, let us fight to fulfill that promise! Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness. Soldiers! In the name of democracy, let us all unite!
Charlie Chaplin, A King in New York (1957). Two speeches written by Chaplin and delivered by Chaplin's 10 year old son Michael (in the role of Rupert Macabee). The first speech can be viewed here:
Further quotes from Peter Kropotkin
Prince Peter Alexeievich Kropotkin (Пётр Алексе́евич Кропо́ткин) (9 December 1842 – 8 February 1921) was a Russian geographer, zoologist, and one of Russia's foremost anarchist social philosophers, famous for promoting forms of anarchist communism.
Quotes
- The history of human thought recalls the swinging of a pendulum which takes centuries to swing. After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening. Then thought frees herself from the chains with which those interested — rulers, lawyers, clerics — have carefully enwound her.
She shatters the chains. She subjects to severe criticism all that has been taught her, and lays bare the emptiness of the religious political, legal, and social prejudices amid which she has vegetated. She starts research in new paths, enriches our knowledge with new discoveries, creates new sciences.
But the inveterate enemies of thought — the government, the lawgiver, and the priest — soon recover from their defeat. By degrees they gather together their scattered forces, and remodel their faith and their code of laws to adapt them to the new needs.
- America is just the country that shows how all the written guarantees in the world for freedom are no protection against tyranny and oppression of the worst kind. There the politician has come to be looked upon as the very scum of society. The peoples of the world are becoming profoundly dissatisfied and are not appeased by the promise of the social-democrats to patch up the State into a new engine of oppression.
- Speech (26 September 1891); as quoted in Peter Kropotkin : From Prince to Rebel (1990) by George Woodcock and Ivan Avakumovic, p. 269
- Belief in an ice-cap reaching Middle Europe was at that time rank heresy; but before my eyes a grand picture was rising, and I wanted to draw it, with the thousands of details I saw in it; to use it as a key to the present distribution of floras and faunas; to open new horizons for geology and physical geography.
But what right had I to these highest joys, when all around me was nothing but misery and struggle for a mouldy bit of bread; when whatsoever I should spend to enable me to live in that world of higher emotions must needs be taken from the very mouths of those who grew the wheat and had not bread enough for their children? From somebody's mouth it must be taken, because the aggregate production of mankind remains still so low.
Knowledge is an immense power. Man must know. But we already know much! What if that knowledge — and only that — should become the possession of all? Would not science itself progress in leaps, and cause mankind to make strides in production, invention, and social creation, of which we are hardly in a condition now to measure the speed?
- The means of production being the collective work of humanity, the product should be the collective property of the race. Individual appropriation is neither just nor serviceable. All belongs to all. All things are for all women and men, since all men and women have need of them, since all women and men have worked in the measure of their strength to produce them, and since it is not possible to evaluate every one's part in the production of the world's wealth.
All things are for all. Here is an immense stock of tools and implements; here are all those iron slaves which we call machines, which saw and plane, spin and weave for us, unmaking and remaking, working up raw matter to produce the marvels of our time. But nobody has the right to seize a single one of these machines and say, "This is mine; if you want to use it you must pay me a tax on each of your products," any more than the feudal lord of medieval times had the right to say to the peasant, "This hill, this meadow belong to me, and you must pay me a tax on every sheaf of corn you reap, on every rick you build."
All is for all! If the man and the woman bear their fair share of work, they have a right to their fair share of all that is produced by all, and that share is enough to secure them well-being. No more of such vague formulas as "The Right to work," or "To each the whole result of his labour." What we proclaim is The Right to Well-Being: Well-Being for All!- The Conquest of Bread (1907), p. 14
- Variant: All things for all men, since all men have need of them, since all men worked to produce them in the measure of their strength, and since it is not possible to evaluate everyone's part in the production of the world's wealth... All is for all!
- This variant was probably produced by a combination of accidental as well as deliberate omission, rather than a separate translation.
- ANARCHISM (from the Gr. ἅν, and άρχη, contrary to authority), the name given to a principle or theory of life and conduct under which society is conceived without government — harmony in such a society being obtained, not by submission to law, or by obedience to any authority, but by free agreements concluded between the various groups, territorial and professional, freely constituted for the sake of production and consumption, as also for the satisfaction of the infinite variety of needs and aspirations of a civilized being. In a society developed on these lines, the voluntary associations which already now begin to cover all the fields of human activity would take a still greater extension so as to substitute themselves for the state in all its functions. They would represent an interwoven network, composed of an infinite variety of groups and federations of all sizes and degrees, local, regional, national and international temporary or more or less permanent — for all possible purposes: production, consumption and exchange, communications, sanitary arrangements, education, mutual protection, defence of the territory, and so on; and, on the other side, for the satisfaction of an ever-increasing number of scientific, artistic, literary and sociable needs. Moreover, such a society would represent nothing immutable. On the contrary — as is seen in organic life at large — harmony would (it is contended) result from an ever-changing adjustment and readjustment of equilibrium between the multitudes of forces and influences, and this adjustment would be the easier to obtain as none of the forces would enjoy a special protection from the state.
- The best exponent of anarchist philosophy in ancient Greece was Zeno (342-267 or 270 B.C.), from Crete, the founder of the Stoic philosophy, who distinctly opposed his conception of a free community without government to the state-Utopia of Plato. He repudiated the omnipotence of the State, its intervention and regimentation, and proclaimed the sovereignty of the moral law of the individual — remarking already that, while the necessary instinct of self-preservation leads man to egotism, nature has supplied a corrective to it by providing man with another instinct — that of sociability. When men are reasonable enough to follow their natural instincts, they will unite across the frontiers and constitute the Cosmos. They will have no need of law-courts or police, will have no temples and no public worship, and use no money — free gifts taking the place of the exchanges. Unfortunately, the writings of Zeno have not reached us and are only known through fragmentary quotations. However, the fact that his very wording is similar to the wording now in use, shows how deeply is laid the tendency of human nature of which he was the mouthpiece.
- "Anarchism" article in Encyclopedia Britannica (1910) "The Historical Development of Anarchism", as quoted in Anarchism: A Collection of Revolutionary Writings (1927), p. 288
- A soon as we study animals — not in laboratories and museums only, but in the forest and prairie, in the steppe and in the mountains — we at once perceive that though there is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species, and especially amidst various classes of animals, there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defence amidst animals belonging to the same species or, at least, to the same society. Sociability is as much a law of nature as mutual struggle. Of course it would be extremely difficult to estimate, however roughly, the relative numerical importance of both these series of facts. But if we resort to an indirect test, and ask Nature: "Who are the fittest: those who are continually at war with each other, or those who support one another?" we at once see that those animals which acquire habits of mutual aid are undoubtedly the fittest. They have more chances to survive, and they attain, in their respective classes, the highest development and bodily organization. If the numberless facts which can be brought forward to support this view are taken into account, we may safely say that mutual aid is as much a law of animal life as mutual struggle; but that as a factor of evolution, it most probably has a far greater importance, inasmuch as it favors the development of such habits and characters as insure the maintenance and further development of the species, together with the greatest amount of welfare and enjoyment of life for the individual, with the least waste of energy.
- "Mutual Aid as a Factor in Evolution" as quoted in The Cry for Justice : An Anthology of the Literature of Social Protest (1915) by Upton Sinclair
- Vladimir Ilyich, your concrete actions are completely unworthy of the ideas you pretend to hold.
Is it possible that you do not know what a hostage really is — a man imprisoned not because of a crime he has committed, but only because it suits his enemies to exert blackmail on his companions? ... If you admit such methods, one can foresee that one day you will use torture, as was done in the Middle Ages.
I hope you will not answer me that Power is for political men a professional duty, and that any attack against that power must be considered as a threat against which one must guard oneself at any price. This opinion is no longer held even by kings... Are you so blinded, so much a prisoner of your own authoritarian ideas, that you do not realise that being at the head of European Communism, you have no right to soil the ideas which you defend by shameful methods ... What future lies in store for Communism when one of its most important defenders tramples in this way every honest feeling?- Letter to Vladimir Lenin (21 December 1920); as quoted in Peter Kropotkin : From Prince to Rebel (1990) by George Woodcock and Ivan Avakumovic, p. 426
- Variant translation: Whoever holds dear the future of communism cannot embark upon such measures.
It is possible that no one has explained what a hostage really is? A hostage is imprisoned not as punishment for some crime. He is held in order to blackmail the enemy with his death.
- You know how I always believe in the future ... Without disorder, the revolution is impossible; knowing that, I did not lose hope, and I do not lose it now.
- Letter to a friend (November 1920), as quoted in Peter Kropotkin : From Prince to Rebel (1990) by George Woodcock and Ivan Avakumovic, p. 428
- Lenin is not comparable to any revolutionary figure in history. Revolutionaries have had ideals. Lenin has none. He is a madman, an immolator, wishful of burning, and slaughter, and sacrificing.
- As quoted in Peter Kropotkin : From Prince to Rebel (1990) by George Woodcock and Ivan Avakumovic, p. 407
- I of course take a negative attitude about a great deal that is happening, and I have said so directly and frankly to many of those who stand at the head of government. They behave well towards me, and many things I asked were carried out. They even proposed that I should take part in their work, but I refused. As an anarchist, I cannot reconcile myself to any government.
- About the Bolshevik revolution, as quoted in Peter Kropotkin : From Prince to Rebel (1990) by George Woodcock and Ivan Avakumovic, p. 428
- The law is an adroit mixture of customs that are beneficial to society, and could be followed even if no law existed, and others that are of advantage to a ruling minority, but harmful to the masses of men and women, and can be enforced on them only by terror.
- "Words of a Rebel"; as quoted in The Heretic's Handbook of Quotations: Cutting Comments on Burning Issues (1992) by Charles Bufe, p. 26
- The law has no claim to human respect. It has no civilizing mission; its only purpose is to protect exploitation.
- "Words of a Rebel"; as quoted in The Heretic's Handbook of Quotations: Cutting Comments on Burning Issues (1992) by Charles Bufe, p. 26
An Appeal to the Young (1880)
- More than a century has passed since science laid down sound propositions as to the origins of the universe, but how many have mastered them or possess the really scientific spirit of criticism? A few thousands at the outside, who are lost in the midst of hundreds of millions still steeped in prejudices and superstitions worthy of savages, who are consequently ever ready to serve as puppets for religious impostors.
- Or, to go a step further, let us glance at what science has done to establish rational foundations for physical and moral health. Science tells us how we ought to live in order to preserve the health of our own bodies, how to maintain in good conditions of existence the crowded masses of our population. But does not all the vast amount of work done in these two directions remain a dead letter in our books? We know it does. And why? Because science today exists only for a handful of privileged persons, because social inequality which divides society into two classes — the wage-slaves and the grabbers of capital — renders all its teachings as to the conditions of a rational existence only the bitterest irony to nine-tenths of mankind.
- If you reason instead of repeating what is taught you; if you analyze the law and strip off those cloudy fictions with which it has been draped in order to conceal its real origin, which is the right of the stronger, and its substance, which has ever been the consecration of all the tyrannies handed down to mankind through its long and bloody history; when you have comprehended this, your contempt for the law will be profound indeed. You will understand that to remain the servant of the written law is to place yourself every day in opposition to the law of conscience, and to make a bargain on the wrong side; and, since this struggle cannot go on forever, you will either silence your conscience and become a scoundrel, or you will break with tradition, and you will work with us for the utter destruction of all this injustice, economic, social and political.
- And you, young engineer, you who dream of improving the lot of the workers by the application of science to industry — what a sad disappointment, what terrible disillusions await you! You devote the useful energy of your mind to working out the scheme of a railway which, running along the brink of precipices and burrowing into the very heart of mountains of granite, will bind together two countries which nature has separated. But once at work, you see whole regiments of workers decimated by privations and sickness in this dark tunnel — you see others of them returning home carrying with them, maybe, a few pence, and the undoubted seeds of consumption; you see human corpses — the results of a groveling greed — as landmarks along each yard of your road; and, when the railroad is finished, you see, lastly, that it becomes the highway for the artillery of an invading army...
- When we have but the will to do it, that very moment will Justice be done: that very instant the tyrants of the Earth shall bite the dust.
The Spirit of Revolt (1880)
- There are periods in the life of human society when revolution becomes an imperative necessity, when it proclaims itself as inevitable. New ideas germinate everywhere, seeking to force their way into the light, to find an application in life; everywhere they are opposed by the inertia of those whose interest it is to maintain the old order; they suffocate in the stifling atmosphere of prejudice and traditions.
- The need for a new life becomes apparent. The code of established morality, that which governs the greater number of people in their daily life, no longer seems sufficient. What formerly seemed just is now felt to be a crying injustice. The morality of yesterday is today recognized as revolting immorality. The conflict between new ideas and old traditions flames up in every class of society, in every possible environment, in the very bosom of the family. ... Those who long for the triumph of justice, those who would put new ideas into practice, are soon forced to recognize that the realization of their generous, humanitarian and regenerating ideas cannot take place in a society thus constituted; they perceive the necessity of a revolutionary whirlwind which will sweep away all this rottenness, revive sluggish hearts with its breath, and bring to mankind that spirit of devotion, self-denial, and heroism, without which society sinks through degradation and vileness into complete disintegration.
- In periods of frenzied haste toward wealth, of feverish speculation and of crisis, of the sudden downfall of great industries and the ephemeral expansion of other branches of production, of scandalous fortunes amassed in a few years and dissipated as quickly, it becomes evident that the economic institutions which control production and exchange are far from giving to society the prosperity which they are supposed to guarantee; they produce precisely the opposite result. ... Human society is seen to be splitting more and more into two hostile camps, and at the same time to be subdividing into thousands of small groups waging merciless war against each other. Weary of these wars, weary of the miseries which they cause, society rushes to seek a new organization; it clamors loudly for a complete remodeling of the system of property ownership, of production, of exchange and all economic relations which spring from it.
- How is it that men who only yesterday were complaining quietly of their lot as they smoked their pipes, and the next moment were humbly saluting the local guard and gendarme whom they had just been abusing, — how is it that these same men a few days later were capable of seizing their scythes and their iron-shod pikes and attacking in his castle the lord who only yesterday was so formidable? By what miracle were these men, whose wives justly called them cowards, transformed in a day into heroes, marching through bullets and cannon balls to the conquest of their rights? How was it that words, so often spoken and lost in the air like the empty chiming of bells, were changed into actions?
The answer is easy.
Action, the continuous action, ceaselessly renewed, of minorities brings about this transformation. Courage, devotion, the spirit of sacrifice, are as contagious as cowardice, submission, and panic.
What forms will this action take? All forms, — indeed, the most varied forms, dictated by circumstances, temperament, and the means at disposal. Sometimes tragic, sometimes humorous, but always daring; sometimes collective, sometimes purely individual, this policy of action will neglect none of the means at hand, no event of public life, in order to keep the spirit alive, to propagate and find expression for dissatisfaction, to excite hatred against exploiters, to ridicule the government and expose its weakness, and above all and always, by actual example, to awaken courage and fan the spirit of revolt.
- When a revolutionary situation arises in a country, before the spirit of revolt is sufficiently awakened in the masses to express itself in violent demonstrations in the streets or by rebellions and uprisings, it is through action that minorities succeed in awakening that feeling of independence and that spirit of audacity without which no revolution can come to a head.
Men of courage, not satisfied with words, but ever searching for the means to transform them into action, — men of integrity for whom the act is one with the idea, for whom prison, exile, and death are preferable to a life contrary to their principles, — intrepid souls who know that it is necessary to dare in order to succeed, — these are the lonely sentinels who enter the battle long before the masses are sufficiently roused to raise openly the banner of insurrection and to march, arms in hand, to the conquest of their rights.
- Whoever has a slight knowledge of history and a fairly clear head knows perfectly well from the beginning that theoretical propaganda for revolution will necessarily express itself in action long before the theoreticians have decided that the moment to act has come. Nevertheless, the cautious theoreticians are angry at these madmen, they excommunicate them, they anathematize them. But the madmen win sympathy, the mass of the people secretly applaud their courage, and they find imitators. In proportion as the pioneers go to fill the jails and the penal colonies, others continue their work; acts of illegal protest, of revolt, of vengeance, multiply.
Indifference from this point on is impossible. Those who at the beginning never so much as asked what the "madmen" wanted, are compelled to think about them, to discuss their ideas, to take sides for or against. By actions which compel general attention, the new idea seeps into people's minds and wins converts. One such act may, in a few days, make more propaganda than thousands of pamphlets.
Above all, it awakens the spirit of revolt: it breeds daring. The old order, supported by the police, the magistrates, the gendarmes and the soldiers, appeared unshakable, like the old fortress of the Bastille, which also appeared impregnable to the eyes of the unarmed people gathered beneath its high walls equipped with loaded cannon. But soon it became apparent that the established order has not the force one had supposed.
- One courageous act has sufficed to upset in a few days the entire governmental machinery, to make the colossus tremble; another revolt has stirred a whole province into turmoil, and the army, till now always so imposing, has retreated before a handful of peasants armed with sticks and stones. The people observe that the monster is not so terrible as they thought they begin dimly to perceive that a few energetic efforts will be sufficient to throw it down. Hope is born in their hearts, and let us remember that if exasperation often drives men to revolt, it is always hope, the hope of victory, which makes revolutions.
The government resists; it is savage in its repressions. But, though formerly persecution killed the energy of the oppressed, now, in periods of excitement, it produces the opposite result. It provokes new acts of revolt, individual and collective, it drives the rebels to heroism; and in rapid succession these acts spread, become general, develop. The revolutionary party is strengthened by elements which up to this time were hostile or indifferent to it.
- The direction which the revolution will take depends, no doubt, upon the sum total of the various circumstances that determine the coming of the cataclysm. But it can be predicted in advance, according to the vigor of revolutionary action displayed in the preparatory period by the different progressive parties. ... The party which has made most revolutionary propaganda and which has shown most spirit and daring will be listened to on the day when it is necessary to act, to march in front in order to realize the revolution.
- If on the morrow of the revolution, the masses of the people have only phrases at their service, if they do not recognize, by clear and blinding facts, that the situation has been transformed to their advantage, if the overthrow ends only in a change of persons and forumlae, nothing will have been acheived. ... In order that the revolution should be something more than a word, in order that the reaction should not lead us back tomorrow to the situation of yesterday, the conquest of today must be worth the trouble of defending; the poor of yesterday must not be the poor today.
- As quoted in Anarchism : A History Of Libertarian Ideas And Movements (2004) by George Woodcock
- Variant: The poor of yesterday must not be poor tomorrow.
Law and Authority (1886)
- Law and Authority (1886), as translated in Kropotkin's Revolutionary Pamphlets (1927) edited by Roger N. Baldwin
- In existing States a fresh law is looked upon as a remedy for evil. Instead of themselves altering what is bad, people begin by demanding a law to alter it. ... In short, a law everywhere and for everything! A law about fashions, a law about mad dogs, a law about virtue, a law to put a stop to all the vices and all the evils which result from human indolence and cowardice.
We are so perverted by an education which from infancy seeks to kill in us the spirit of revolt, and to develop that of submission to authority; we are so perverted by this existence under the ferrule of a law, which regulates every event in life — our birth, our education, our development, our love, our friendship — that, if this state of things continues, we shall lose all initiative, all habit of thinking for ourselves. Our society seems no longer able to understand that it is possible to exist otherwise than under the reign of law, elaborated by a representative government and administered by a handful of rulers. And even when it has gone so far as to emancipate itself from the thralldom, its first care has been to reconstitute it immediately. "The Year I of Liberty" has never lasted more than a day, for after proclaiming it men put themselves the very next morning under the yoke of law and authority.- I
- Cleverly assorted scraps of spurious science are inculcated upon the children to prove necessity of law; obedience to the law is made a religion; moral goodness and the law of the masters are fused into one and the same divinity. The historical hero of the schoolroom is the man who obeys the law, and defends it against rebels.
- I
- The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven.
- I
- Men who long for freedom begin the attempt to obtain it by entreating their masters to be kind enough to protect them by modifying the laws which these masters themselves have created!
But times and tempers are changed. Rebels are everywhere to be found who no longer wish to obey the law without knowing whence it comes, what are its uses, and whither arises the obligation to submit to it, and the reverence with which it is encompassed. The rebels of our day are criticizing the very foundations of society which have hitherto been held sacred, and first and foremost amongst them that fetish, law.
The critics analyze the sources of law, and find there either a god, product of the terrors of the savage, and stupid, paltry, and malicious as the priests who vouch for its supernatural origin, or else, bloodshed, conquest by fire and sword. They study the characteristics of law, and instead of perpetual growth corresponding to that of the human race, they find its distinctive trait to be immobility, a tendency to crystallize what should be modified and developed day by day.- I
- They see a race of law-makers legislating without knowing what their laws are about; today voting a law on the sanitation of towns, without the faintest notion of hygiene, tomorrow making regulations for the armament of troops, without so much as understanding a gun; making laws about teaching and education without ever having given a lesson of any sort, or even an honest education to their own children; legislating at random in all directions, but never forgetting the penalties to be meted out to ragamufffins, the prison and the galleys, which are to be the portion of men a thousand times less immoral than these legislators themselves.
- I
- All this we see, and, therefore, instead of inanely repeating the old formula, "Respect the law," we say, "Despise law and all its Attributes!" In place of the cowardly phrase, "Obey the law," our cry, is "Revolt against all laws!"
- I
- Relatively speaking, law is a product of modern times. For ages and ages mankind lived without any written law, even that graved in symbols upon the entrance stones of a temple. During that period, human relations were simply regulated by customs, habits, and usages, made sacred by constant repetition, and acquired by each person in childhood, exactly as he learned how to obtain his food by hunting, cattle-rearing, or agriculture.
All human societies have passed through this primitive phase, and to this day a large proportion of mankind have no written law. Every tribe has its own manners and customs; customary law, as the jurists say. It has social habits, and that suffices to maintain cordial relations between the inhabitants of the village, the members of the tribe or community. Even amongst ourselves — the "civilized" nations — when we leave large towns, and go into the country, we see that there the mutual relations of the inhabitants are still regulated according to ancient and generally accepted customs, and not according to the written law of the legislators.- II
- As man does not live in a solitary state, habits and feeling develop within him which are useful for the preservation of society and the propagation of the race. Without social feelings and usages life in common would have been absolutely impossible. It is not law which has established them; they are anterior to all law. Neither is it religion which has ordained them; they are anterior to all religions. They are found amongst all animals living in society. They are spontaneously developed by the new nature of things, like those habits in animals which men call instinct. They spring from a process of evolution, which is useful, and, indeed, necessary, to keep society together in the struggle it is forced to maintain for existence.
- II
- The hospitality of primitive peoples, respect for human life, the sense of reciprocal obligation, compassion for the weak, courage, extending even to the sacrifice of self for others which is first learnt for the sake of children and friends, and later for that of members of the same community — all these qualities are developed in man anterior to all law, independently of all religion, as in the case of the social animals. Such feelings and practices are the inevitable results of social life. Without being, as say priests and metaphysicans, inherent in man, such qualities are the consequence of life in common.
But side by side with these customs, necessary to the life of societies and the preservation of the race, other desires, other passions, and therefore other habits and customs, are evolved in human association. The desire to dominate others and impose one's own will upon them; the desire to seize upon the products of the labor of a neighboring tribe; the desire to surround oneself with comforts without producing anything, while slaves provide their master with the means of procuring every sort of pleasure and luxury — these selfish, personal desires give rise to another current of habits and customs.- II
- Legislators confounded in one code the two currents of custom of which we have just been speaking, the maxims which represent principles of morality and social union wrought out as a result of life in common, and the mandates which are meant to ensure external existence to inequality.
Customs, absolutely essential to the very being of society, are, in the code, cleverly intermingled with usages imposed by the ruling caste, and both claim equal respect from the crowd. "Do not kill," says the code, and hastens to add, "And pay tithes to the priest." "Do not steal," says the code, and immediately after, "He who refuses to pay taxes, shall have his hand struck off."
Such was law; and it has maintained its two-fold character to this day. Its origin is the desire of the ruling class to give permanence to customs imposed by themselves for their own advantage. Its character is the skillful commingling of customs useful to society, customs which have no need of law to insure respect, with other customs useful only to rulers, injurious to the mass of the people, and maintained only by the fear of punishment.- II
- While in the course of ages the nucleus of social custom inscribed in law has been subjected to but slight and gradual modifications, the other portion has been largely developed in directions indicated by the interests of the dominant classes, and to the injury of the classes they oppress.
- III
- The millions of laws which exist for the regulation of humanity appear upon investigation to be divided into three principal categories: protection of property, protection of persons, protection of government. And by analyzing each of these three categories, we arrive at the same logical and necessary conclusion: the uselessness and hurtfulness of law.
- IV
Anarchism: Its Philosophy and Ideal (1896)
- A lecture prepared for March 1896 which Kropotkin was prevented from delivering. Anarchism: Its Philosophy and Ideal (1898 edition, translated from the German by Harry Lyman Koopman); (1896 translation)
- It is not without a certain hesitation that I have decided to take the philosophy and ideal of Anarchy as the subject of this lecture.
Those who are persuaded that Anarchy is a collection of visions relating to the future, and an unconscious striving toward the destruction of all present civilization, are still very numerous; and to clear the ground of such prejudices of our education as maintain this view we should have, perhaps, to enter into many details which it would be difficult to embody in a single lecture. Did not the Parisian press, only two or three years ago, maintain that the whole philosophy of Anarchy consisted in destruction, and that its only argument was violence?
Nevertheless Anarchists have been spoken of so much lately, that part of the public has at last taken to reading and discussing our doctrines. Sometimes men have even given themselves trouble to reflect, and at the present moment we have at least gained a point: it is willingly admitted that Anarchists have an ideal. Their ideal is even found too beautiful, too lofty for a society not composed of superior beings.
- Take any work on astronomy of the last century, or the beginning of ours. You will no longer find in it, it goes without saying, our tiny planet placed in the center of the universe. But you will meet at every step the idea of a central luminary — the sun — which by its powerful attraction governs our planetary world. From this central body radiates a force guiding the course of the planets, and maintaining the harmony of the system. Issued from a central agglomeration, planets have, so to say, budded from it; they owe their birth to this agglomeration; they owe everything to the radiant star that represents it still: the rhythm of their movements, their orbits set at wisely regulated distances, the life that animates them and adorns their surfaces. And when any perturbation disturbs their course and makes them deviate from their orbits, the central body re-establishes order in the system; it assures and perpetuates its existence.
This conception, however, is also disappearing as the other one did. After having fixed all their attention on the sun and the large planets, astronomers are beginning to study now the infinitely small ones that people the universe. And they discover that the interplanetary and interstellar spaces are peopled and crossed in all imaginable directions by little swarms of matter, invisible, infinitely small when taken separately, but all-powerful in their numbers.
- The whole aspect of the universe changes with this new conception. The idea of force governing the world, of pre-established law, preconceived harmony, disappears to make room for the harmony that Fourier had caught a glimpse of: the one which results from the disorderly and incoherent movements of numberless hosts of matter, each of which goes its own way and all of which hold each other in equilibrium.
- Kropotkin here may be refering to the French scientist Joseph Fourier, and not the French social philosopher Charles Fourier
- When a physiologist speaks now of the life of a plant or of an animal, he sees rather an agglomeration, a colony of millions of separate individuals than a personality one and indivisible. He speaks of a federation of digestive, sensual, nervous organs, all very intimately connected with one another, each feeling the consequence of the well-being or indisposition of each, but each living its own life. Each organ, each part of an organ in its turn is composed of independent cellules which associate to struggle against conditions unfavorable to their existence. The individual is quite a world of federations, a whole universe in himself.
- Each individual is a cosmos of organs, each organ is a cosmos of cells, each cell is a cosmos of infinitely small ones; and in this complex world, the well-being of the whole depends entirely on the sum of well-being enjoyed by each of the least microscopic particles of organized matter. A whole revolution is thus produced in the philosophy of life.
- Harmony thus appears as a temporary adjustment, established among all forces acting upon a given spot — a provisory adaptation; and that adjustment will only last under one condition: that of being continually modified; of representing every moment the resultant of all conflicting actions. Let but one of those forces be hampered in its action for some time and harmony disappears. Force will accumulate its effect; it must come to light, it must exercise its action, and if other forces hinder its manifestation it will not be annihilated by that, but will end by upsetting the present adjustment, by destroying harmony, in order to find a new form of equilibrium and to work to form a new adaptation. Such is the eruption of a volcano, whose imprisoned force ends by breaking the petrified lavas which hindered them to pour forth the gases, the molten lavas, and the incandescent ashes. Such, also, are the revolutions of mankind.
- A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation. Under the name of Anarchy, a new interpretation of the past and present life of society arises, giving at the same time a forecast as regards its future, both conceived in the same spirit as the above-mentioned interpretation in natural sciences. Anarchy, therefore, appears as a constituent part of the new philosophy, and that is why Anarchists come in contact, on so many points, with the greatest thinkers and poets of the present day.
In fact, it is certain that in proportion as the human mind frees itself from ideas inculcated by minorities of priests, military chiefs and judges, all striving to establish their domination, and of scientists paid to perpetuate it, a conception of society arises, in which conception there is no longer room for those dominating minorities. A society entering into possession of the social capital accumulated by the labor of preceding generations, organizing itself so as to make use of this capital in the interests of all, and constituting itself without reconstituting the power of the ruling minorities. It comprises in its midst an infinite variety of capacities, temperaments and individual energies: it excludes none. It even calls for struggles and contentions; because we know that periods of contests, so long as they were freely fought out, without the weight of constituted authority being thrown on the one side of the balance, were periods when human genius took its mightiest flight and achieved the greatest aims. Acknowledging, as a fact, the equal rights of all its members to the treasures accumulated in the past, it no longer recognizes a division between exploited and exploiters, governed and governors, dominated and dominators, and it seeks to establish a certain harmonious compatibility in its midst — not by subjecting all its members to an authority that is fictitiously supposed to represent society, not by trying to establish uniformity, but by urging all men to develop free initiative, free action, free association.
It seeks the most complete development of individuality combined with the highest development of voluntary association in all its aspects, in all possible degrees, for all imaginable aims; ever changing, ever modified associations which carry in themselves the elements of their durability and constantly assume new forms, which answer best to the multiple aspirations of all.
- A society to which preestablished forms, crystallized by law, are repugnant; which looks for harmony in an ever-changing and fugitive equilibrium between a multitude of varied forces and influences of every kind, following their own course, — these forces promoting themselves the energies which are favorable to their march toward progress, toward the liberty of developing in broad daylight and counter-balancing one another.
This conception and ideal of society is certainly not new. On the contrary, when we analyze the history of popular institutions — the clan, the village community, the guild and even the urban commune of the Middle Ages in their first stages, — we find the same popular tendency to constitute a society according to this idea...
- It is futile to speak of liberty as long as economic slavery exists.
"Speak not of liberty — poverty is slavery!" is not a vain formula; it has penetrated into the ideas of the great working-class masses; it filters through all the present literature; it even carries those along who live on the poverty of others, and takes from them the arrogance with which they formerly asserted their rights to exploitation.
- The masses have never believed in sophisms taught by economists, uttered more to confirm exploiters in their rights than to convert exploited! Peasants and workers, crushed by misery and finding no support in the well-to-do classes, have let things go, save from time to time when they have affirmed their rights by insurrection. And if workers ever thought that the day would come when personal appropriation of capital would profit all by turning it into a stock of wealth to be shared by all, this illusion is vanishing like so many others. The worker perceives that he has been disinherited, and that disinherited he will remain, unless he has recourse to strikes or revolts to tear from his masters the smallest part of riches built up by his own efforts; that is to say, in order to get that little, he already must impose on himself the pangs of hunger and face imprisonment, if not exposure to Imperial, Royal, or Republican fusillades.
But a greater evil of the present system becomes more and more marked; namely, that in a system based on private appropriation, all that is necessary to life and to production — land, housing, food and tools — having once passed into the hands of a few, the production of necessities that would give well-being to all is continually hampered. The worker feels vaguely that our present technical power could give abundance to all, but he also perceives how the capitalistic system and the State hinder the conquest of this well-being in every way.
Far from producing more than is needed to assure material riches, we do not produce enough.
- What economists call over-production is but a production that is above the purchasing power of the worker, who is reduced to poverty by Capital and State. Now, this sort of over-production remains fatally characteristic of the present capitalist production, because — Proudhon has already shown it — workers cannot buy with their salaries what they have produced and at the same time copiously nourish the swarm of idlers who live upon their work.
The very essence of the present economic system is, that the worker can never enjoy the well-being he has produced, and that the number of those who live at his expense will always augment. The more a country is advanced in industry, the more this number grows. Inevitably, industry is directed, and will have to be directed, not towards what is needed to satisfy the needs of all, but towards that which, at a given moment, brings in the greatest temporary profit to a few. Of necessity, the abundance of some will be based on the poverty of others, and the straitened circumstances of the greater number will have to be maintained at all costs, that there may be hands to sell themselves for a part only of that which they are capable of producing; without which, private accumulation of capital is impossible!
These characteristics of our economical system are its very essence. Without them, it cannot exist; for, who would sell his labor power for less than it is capable of bringing in, if he were not forced thereto by the threat of hunger?
And those essential traits of the system are also its most crushing condemnation.
- All is linked, all holds together under the present economic system, and all tends to make the fall of the industrial and mercantile system under which we live inevitable. Its duration is but a question of time that may already be counted by years and no longer by centuries. A question of time — and energetic attack on our part! Idlers do not make history: they suffer it!
- The uncertainty of Socialists themselves concerning the organization of the society they are wishing for, paralyses their energy up to a certain point.
At the beginning, in the forties, Socialism presented itself as Communism, as a republic one and indivisible, as a governmental and Jacobin dictatorship, in its application to economics. Such was the ideal of that time. Religious and freethinking Socialists were equally ready to submit to any strong government, even an imperial one, if that government would only remodel economic relations to the worker's advantage.
A profound revolution has since been accomplished, especially among Latin and English peoples. Governmental Communism, like theocratic Communism, is repugnant to the worker.
- It is only by the abolition of the State, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism — the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches.
- If every Socialist will carry his thoughts back to an earlier date, he will no doubt remember the host of prejudices aroused in him when, for the first time, he came to the idea that abolishing the capitalist system and private appropriation of land and capital had become an historical necessity.
The same feelings are today produced in the man who for the first time hears that the abolition of the State, its laws, its entire system of management, governmentalism and centralization, also becomes an historical necessity: that the abolition of the one without the abolition of the other is materially impossible. Our whole education — made, be it noted, by Church and State, in the interests of both — revolts at this conception.
Is it less true for that? And shall we allow our belief in the State to survive the host of prejudices we have already sacrificed for our emancipation?
- To begin with, if man, since his origin, has always lived in societies, the State is but one of the forms of social life, quite recent as far as regards European societies. Men lived thousands of years before the first States were constituted; Greece and Rome existed for centuries before the Macedonian and Roman Empires were built up, and for us modern Europeans the centralized States date but from the sixteenth century. It was only then, after the defeat of the free mediæval Communes had been completed that the mutual insurance company between military, judicial, landlord, and capitalist authority which we call "State," could be fully established.
- We know well the means by which this association of the lord, priest, merchant, judge, soldier, and king founded its domination. It was by the annihilation of all free unions: of village communities, guilds, trades unions, fraternities, and mediæval cities. It was by confiscating the land of the communes and the riches of the guilds; it was by the absolute and ferocious prohibition of all kinds of free agreement between men; it was by massacre, the wheel, the gibbet, the sword, and the fire that Church and State established their domination, and that they succeeded henceforth to reign over an incoherent agglomeration of subjects, who had no direct union more among themselves.
It is now hardly thirty or forty years ago that we began to reconquer, by struggle, by revolt, the first steps of the right of association, that was freely practised by the artisans and the tillers of the soil through the whole of the middle ages.
And, already now, Europe is covered by thousands of voluntary associations for study and teaching, for industry, commerce, science, art, literature, exploitation, resistance to exploitation, amusement, serious work, gratification and self-denial, for all that makes up the life of an active and thinking being. We see these societies rising in all nooks and corners of all domains: political, economic, artistic, intellectual. Some are as shortlived as roses, some hold their own since several decades, and all strive — while maintaining the independence of each group, circle, branch, or section — to federate, to unite, across frontiers as well as among each nation; to cover all the life of civilized men with a net, meshes of which are intersected and interwoven.
- These societies already begin to encroach everywhere on the functions of the State, and strive to substitute free action of volunteers for that of a centralized State. In England we see arise insurance companies against theft; societies for coast defense, volunteer societies for land defense, which the State endeavors to get under its thumb, thereby making them instruments of domination, although their original aim was to do without the State. Were it not for Church and State, free societies would have already conquered the whole of the immense domain of education. And, in spite of all difficulties, they begin to invade this domain as well, and make their influence already felt.
And when we mark the progress already accomplished in that direction, in spite of and against the State, which tries by all means to maintain its supremacy of recent origin; when we see how voluntary societies invade everything and are only impeded in their development by the State, we are forced to recognize a powerful tendency, a latent force in modern society.
- Educated men — "civilized," as Fourier used to say with disdain — tremble at the idea that society might some day be without judges, police, or gaolers.
- Here Kropotkin seems to be refering to the French philosopher Charles Fourier, and not the French scientist Joseph Fourier.
- Has not experience demonstrated quite recently that Jack the Ripper performed his exploits under the eye of the London police — a most active force — and that he only left off killing when the population of Whitechapel itself began to give chase to him?
And in our every-day relations with our fellow-citizens, do you think that it is really judges, gaolers, and police that hinder anti-social acts from multiplying? The judge, ever ferocious, because he is a maniac of law, the accuser, the informer, the police spy, all those interlopers that live from hand to mouth around the Law Courts, do they not scatter demoralization far and wide into society? Read the trials, glance behind the scenes, push your analysis further than the exterior facade of law courts, and you will come out sickened.
- Have not prisons — which kill all will and force of character in man, which enclose within their walls more vices than are met with on any other spot of the globe — always been universities of crime? Is not the court of a tribunal a school of ferocity?
- When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
- Once a German jurist of great renown, Ihering, wanted to sum up the scientific work of his life and write a treatise, in which he proposed to analyze the factors that preserve social life in society. "Purpose in Law" (Der Zweck im Rechte), such is the title of that book, which enjoys a well-deserved reputation.
He made an elaborate plan of his treatise, and, with much erudition, discussed both coercive factors which are used to maintain society: wagedom and the different forms of coercion which are sanctioned by law. At the end of his work he reserved two paragraphs only to mention the two non-coercive factors — the feeling of duty and the feeling of mutual sympathy — to which he attached little importance, as might be expected from a writer in law.
But what happened? As he went on analyzing the coercive factors he realized their insufficiency. He consecrated a whole volume to their analysis, and the result was to lessen their importance! When he began the last two paragraphs, when he began to reflect upon the non-coercive factors of society, he perceived, on the contrary, their immense, outweighing importance; and instead of two paragraphs, he found himself obliged to write a second volume, twice as large as the first, on these two factors: voluntary restraint and mutual help; and yet, he analyzed but an infinitesimal part of these latter — those which result from personal sympathy — and hardly touched free agreement, which results from social institutions.
- It is often said that Anarchists live in a world of dreams to come, and do not see the things which happen today. We do see them only too well, and in their true colors, and that is what makes us carry the hatchet into the forest of prejudice that besets us.
Far from living in a world of visions and imagining men better than they are, we see them as they are; and that is why we affirm that the best of men is made essentially bad by the exercise of authority, and that the theory of the "balancing of powers" and "control of authorities" is a hypocritical formula, invented by those who have seized power, to make the "sovereign people," whom they despise, believe that the people themselves are governing. It is because we know men that we say to those who imagine that men would devour one another without those governors: "You reason like the king, who, being sent across the frontier, called out, 'What will become of my poor subjects without me?'"
- Ah, if men were those superior beings that the utopians of authority like to speak to us of, if we could close our eyes to reality, and live, like them, in a world of dreams and illusions as to the superiority of those who think themselves called to power, perhaps we also should do like them; perhaps we also should believe in the virtues of those who govern.
With virtuous masters, what dangers could slavery offer? Do you remember the Slave-owner of whom we heard so often, hardly thirty years ago? Was he not supposed to take paternal care of his slaves? "He alone," we were told, "could hinder these lazy, indolent, improvident children dying of hunger. How could he crush his slaves through hard labor, or mutilate them by blows, when his own interest lay in feeding them well, in taking care of them as much as of his own children! And then, did not 'the law' see to it that the least swerving of a slave-owner from the path of duty was punished?" How many times have we not been told so! But the reality was such that, having returned from a voyage to Brazil, Darwin was haunted all his life by the cries of agony of mutilated slaves, by the sobs of moaning women whose fingers were crushed in thumbscrews!
- Oh, the beautiful utopia, the lovely Christmas dream we can make as soon as we admit that those who govern represent a superior caste, and have hardly any or no knowledge of simple mortals' weaknesses! It would then suffice to make them control one another in hierarchical fashion, to let them exchange fifty papers, at most, among different administrators, when the wind blows down a tree on the national road. Or, if need be, they would have only to be valued at their proper worth, during elections, by those same masses of mortals which are supposed to be endowed with all stupidity in their mutual relations but become wisdom itself when they have to elect their masters.
All the science of government, imagined by those who govern, is imbibed with these utopias. But we know men too well to dream such dreams. We have not two measures for the virtues of the governed and those of the governors; we know that we ourselves are not without faults and that the best of us would soon be corrupted by the exercise of power. We take men for what they are worth — and that is why we hate the government of man by man, and that we work with all our might — perhaps not strong enough — to put an end to it.
But it is not enough to destroy. We must also know how to build, and it is owing to not having thought about it that the masses have always been led astray in all their revolutions. After having demolished they abandoned the care of reconstruction to the middle class people, who possessed a more or less precise conception of what they wished to realize, and who consequently reconstituted authority to their own advantage.
That is why Anarchy, when it works to destroy authority in all its aspects, when it demands the abrogation of laws and the abolition of the mechanism that serves to impose them, when it refuses all hierarchical organization and preaches free agreement — at the same time strives to maintain and enlarge the precious kernel of social customs without which no human or animal society can exist. Only, instead of demanding that those social customs should be maintained through the authority of a few, it demands it from the continued action of all.
- When we ask ourselves by what means a certain moral level can be maintained in a human or animal society, we find only three such means: the repression of anti-social acts; moral teaching; and the practice of mutual help itself. And as all three have already been put to the test of practice, we can judge them by their effects.
As to the impotence of repression — it is sufficiently demonstrated by the disorder of present society and by the necessity of a revolution that we all desire or feel inevitable. In the domain of economy, coercion has led us to industrial servitude; in the domain of politics — to the State, that is to say, to the destruction of all ties that formerly existed among citizens, and to the nation becoming nothing but an incoherent mass of obedient subjects of a central authority.
- Not only has a coercive system contributed and powerfully aided to create all the present economical, political and social evils, but it has given proof of its absolute impotence to raise the moral level of societies; it has not been even able to maintain it at the level it had already reached. If a benevolent fairy could only reveal to our eyes all the crimes that are committed every day, every minute, in a civilized society under cover of the unknown, or the protection of law itself, — society would shudder at that terrible state of affairs.
- Practised for centuries, repression has so badly succeeded that it has but led us into a blind alley from which we can only issue by carrying torch and hatchet into the institutions of our authoritarian past.
- Far be it from us not to recognize the importance of the second factor, moral teaching — especially that which is unconsciously transmitted in society and results from the whole of the ideas and comments emitted by each of us on facts and events of every-day life. But this force can only act on society under one condition, that of not being crossed by a mass of contradictory immoral teachings resulting from the practice of insitutions.
In that case its influence is nil or baneful. Take Christian morality: what other teaching could have had more hold on minds than that spoken in the name of a crucified God, and could have acted with all its mystical force, all its poetry of martyrdom, its grandeur in forgiving executioners? And yet the institution was more powerful than the religion: soon Christianity — a revolt against imperial Rome — was conquered by that same Rome; it accepted its maxims, customs, and language. The Christian church accepted the Roman law as its own, and as such — allied to the State — it became in history the most furious enemy of all semi-communist institutions, to which Christianity appealed at Its origin.
- The third element alone remains — the institution itself, acting in such a way as to make social acts a state of habit and instinct. This element — history proves it — has never missed its aim, never has it acted as a double-bladed sword; and its influence has only been weakened when custom strove to become immovable, crystallized, to become in its turn a religion not to be questioned when it endeavored to absorb the individual, taking all freedom of action from him and compelling him to revolt against that which had become, through its crystallization, an enemy to progress.
- All that was an element of progress in the past or an instrument of moral and intellectual improvement of the human race is due to the practice of mutual aid, to the customs that recognized the equality of men and brought them to ally, to unite, to associate for the purpose of producing and consuming, to unite for purpose of defence to federate and to recognize no other judges in fighting out their differences than the arbitrators they took from their own midst.
Each time these institutions, issued from popular genius, when it had reconquered its liberty for a moment, — each time these institutions developed in a new direction, the moral level of society, its material well-being, its liberty, its intellectual progress, and the affirmation of individual originality made a step in advance. And, on the contrary, each time that in the course of history, whether following upon a foreign conquest, or whether by developing authoritarian prejudices men become more and more divided into governors and governed, exploiters and exploited, the moral level fell, the well-being of the masses decreased in order to insure riches to a few, and the spirit of the age declined.
The State — Its Historic Role (1897)
- It is above all over the question of the State that socialists are divided. Two main currents can be discerned in the factions that exist among us which correspond to differences in temperament as well as in ways of thinking, but above all to the extent that one believes in the coming revolution.
There are those, on the one hand, who hope to achieve the social revolution through the State by preserving and even extending most of its powers to be used for the revolution. And there are those like ourselves who see the State, both in its present form, in its very essence, and in whatever guise it might appear, an obstacle to the social revolution, the greatest hindrance to the birth of a society based on equality and liberty, as well as the historic means designed to prevent this blossoming. The latter work to abolish the State and not to reform it.- I
- The State is only one of the forms assumed by society in the course of history. Why then make no distinction between what is permanent and what is accidental?
- I
- The State idea means something quite different from the idea of government. It not only includes the existence of a power situated above society, but also of a territorial concentration as well as the concentration in the hands of a few of many functions in the life of societies. It implies some new relationships between members of society which did not exist before the formation of the State. A whole mechanism of legislation and of policing has to be developed in order to subject some classes to the domination of others.
This distinction, which at first sight might not be obvious, emerges especially when one studies the origins of the State.- I
- The Roman Empire was a State in the real sense of the word. To this day it remains the legist's ideal. Its organs covered a vast domain with a tight network. Everything gravitated towards Rome: economic and military life, wealth, education, nay, even religion. From Rome came the laws, the magistrates, the legions to defend the territory, the prefects and the gods, The whole life of the Empire went back to the Senate — later to the Caesar, the all powerful, omniscient, god of the Empire. Every province, every district had its Capitol in miniature, its small portion of Roman sovereignty to govern every aspect of daily life. A single law, that imposed by Rome, dominated that Empire which did not represent a confederation of fellow citizens but was simply a herd of subjects.
Even now, the legist and the authoritarian still admire the unity of that Empire, the unitarian spirit of its laws and, as they put it, the beauty and harmony of that organization.
But the disintegration from within, hastened by the barbarian invasion; the extinction of local life, which could no longer resist the attacks from outside on the one hand nor the canker spreading from the centre on the other; the domination by the rich who had appropriated the land to themselves and the misery of those who cultivated it — all these causes reduced the Empire to a shambles, and on these ruins a new civilization developed which is now ours.- I
- Think of past wars and of those that subjected people will have to wage to conquer the right to breathe freely, the wars for markets, the wars to create colonial empires. And in France we unfortunately know only too well that every war, victorious or not, is followed by slavery.
And finally what is even worse than all that has just been enumerated, is the fact that the education we all receive from the State, at school and after, has so warped our minds that the very notion of freedom ends up by being lost, and disguised in servitude.
It is a sad sight to see those who believe themselves to be revolutionaries unleashing their hatred on the anarchist — just because his views on freedom go beyond their petty and narrow concepts of freedom learned in the State school. And meanwhile, this spectacle is a reality. The fact is that the spirit of voluntary servitude was always cleverly cultivated in the minds of the young, and still is, in order to perpetuate the subjection of the individual to the State.- IX
- Throughout the history of our civilization, two traditions, two opposing tendencies have confronted each other: the Roman and the Popular; the imperial and the federalist; the authoritarian and the libertarian. And this is so, once more, on the eve of the social revolution.
Between these two currents, always manifesting themselves, always at grips with each other — the popular trend and that which thirsts for political and religious domination — we have made our choice.
We seek to recapture the spirit which drove people in the twelfth century to organise themselves on the basis of free agreement and individual initiative as well as of the free federation of the interested parties. And we are quite prepared to leave the others to cling to the imperial, the Roman and canonical tradition.- X
- Either the State for ever, crushing individual and local life, taking over in all fields of human activity, bringing with it its wars and its domestic struggles for power, its palace revolutions which only replace one tyrant by another, and inevitably at the end of this development there is ... death!
Or the destruction of States, and new life starting again in thousands of centers on the principle of the lively initiative of the individual and groups and that of free agreement.
The choice lies with you!- X, Closing lines
Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (1902)
- In the animal world we have seen that the vast majority of species live in societies, and that they find in association the best arms for the struggle for life: understood, of course, in its wide Darwinian sense — not as a struggle for the sheer means of existence, but as a struggle against all natural conditions unfavourable to the species. The animal species, in which individual struggle has been reduced to its narrowest limits, and the practice of mutual aid has attained the greatest development, are invariably the most numerous, the most prosperous, and the most open to further progress. The mutual protection which is obtained in this case, the possibility of attaining old age and of accumulating experience, the higher intellectual development, and the further growth of sociable habits, secure the maintenance of the species, its extension, and its further progressive evolution. The unsociable species, on the contrary, are doomed to decay.
- Out of the savage tribe grew up the barbarian village community; and a new, still wider, circle of social customs, habits, and institutions, numbers of which are still alive among ourselves, was developed under the principles of common possession of a given territory and common defence of it, under the jurisdiction of the village folkmote, and in the federation of villages belonging, or supposed to belong, to one stem. And when new requirements induced men to make a new start, they made it in the city, which represented a double network of territorial units (village communities) connected with guilds, these latter arising out of the common prosecution of a given art or craft, or for mutual support and defence.
- Mutual aid, even though it may represent one of the factors of evolution, covers nevertheless one aspect only of human relations; that by the side of this current, powerful though it may be, there is, and always has been, the other current — the self-assertion of the individual, not only in its efforts to attain personal or caste superiority, economical, political, and spiritual, but also in its much more important although less evident function of breaking through the bonds, always prone to become crystallized, which the tribe, the village community, the city, and the State impose upon the individual. In other words, there is the self-assertion of the individual taken as a progressive element.
It is evident that no review of evolution can be complete, unless these two dominant currents are analyzed. However, the self-assertion of the individual or of groups of individuals, their struggles for superiority, and the conflicts which resulted therefrom, have already been analyzed, described, and glorified from time immemorial. In fact, up to the present time, this current alone has received attention from the epical poet, the annalist, the historian, and the sociologist. History, such as it has hitherto been written, is almost entirely a description of the ways and means by which theocracy, military power, autocracy, and, later on, the richer classes' rule have been promoted, established, and maintained.
- One single war — we all know — may be productive of more evil, immediate and subsequent, than hundreds of years of the unchecked action of the mutual-aid principle may be productive of good.
- As to the sudden industrial progress which has been achieved during our own century, and which is usually ascribed to the triumph of individualism and competition, it certainly has a much deeper origin than that. Once the great discoveries of the fifteenth century were made, especially that of the pressure of the atmosphere, supported by a series of advances in natural philosophy — and they were made under the medieval city organization, — once these discoveries were made, the invention of the steam-motor, and all the revolution which the conquest of a new power implied, had necessarily to follow... To attribute, therefore, the industrial progress of our century to the war of each against all which it has proclaimed, is to reason like the man who, knowing not the causes of rain, attributes it to the victim he has immolated before his clay idol. For industrial progress, as for each other conquest over nature, mutual aid and close intercourse certainly are, as they have been, much more advantageous than mutual struggle.
- It is especially in the domain of ethics that the dominating importance of the mutual-aid principle appears in full. That mutual aid is the real foundation of our ethical conceptions seems evident enough. But whatever the opinions as to the first origin of the mutual-aid feeling or instinct may be whether a biological or a supernatural cause is ascribed to it — we must trace its existence as far back as to the lowest stages of the animal world; and from these stages we can follow its uninterrupted evolution, in opposition to a number of contrary agencies, through all degrees of human development, up to the present times. Even the new religions which were born from time to time — always at epochs when the mutual-aid principle was falling into decay in the theocracies and despotic States of the East, or at the decline of the Roman Empire — even the new religions have only reaffirmed that same principle. They found their first supporters among the humble, in the lowest, downtrodden layers of society, where the mutual-aid principle is the necessary foundation of every-day life; and the new forms of union which were introduced in the earliest Buddhist and Christian communities, in the Moravian brotherhoods and so on, took the character of a return to the best aspects of mutual aid in early tribal life.
Each time, however, that an attempt to return to this old principle was made, its fundamental idea itself was widened. From the clan it was extended to the stem, to the federation of stems, to the nation, and finally — in ideal, at least — to the whole of mankind.
- In primitive Buddhism, in primitive Christianity, in the writings of some of the Mussulman teachers, in the early movements of the Reform, and especially in the ethical and philosophical movements of the last century and of our own times, the total abandonment of the idea of revenge, or of "due reward" — of good for good and evil for evil — is affirmed more and more vigorously. The higher conception of "no revenge for wrongs," and of freely giving more than one expects to receive from his neighbours, is proclaimed as being the real principle of morality — a principle superior to mere equivalence, equity, or justice, and more conducive to happiness. And man is appealed to to be guided in his acts, not merely by love, which is always personal, or at the best tribal, but by the perception of his oneness with each human being. In the practice of mutual aid, which we can retrace to the earliest beginnings of evolution, we thus find the positive and undoubted origin of our ethical conceptions; and we can affirm that in the ethical progress of man, mutual support — not mutual struggle — has had the leading part. In its wide extension, even at the present time, we also see the best guarantee of a still loftier evolution of our race.
Misattributed
- Unless Socialists are prepared openly and avowedly to profess that the satisfaction of the needs of each individual must be their very first aim; unless they have prepared public opinion to establish itself firmly at this standpoint, the people in their next attempt to free themselves will once more suffer a defeat.
- This appeared in "The First Work of the Revolution" an article by an unidentified author in Freedom, Vol. 1, No. (11 August 1887), where another article had been written by Kropotkin.
Quotes about Kropotkin
- Russia was our main point of discussion. The conditions were terrible, as everyone agreed, and the Dictatorship the greatest crime of the Bolsheviki. But there was no reason to lose faith, he assured me. The Revolution and the masses were greater than any political Party and its machinations. The latter might triumph temporarily, but the heart of the Russian masses was uncorrupted and they would rally themselves to a clear understanding of the evil of the Dictatorship and of Bolshevik tyranny. Present Russian life, he said, was an artificial condition forced by the governing class. The rule of a small political Party was based on false theories, violent methods, fearful blunders and general inefficiency. They were suppressing the very expression of the people's will and initiative which alone could rebuild the ruined economic life of the country. The stupid attitude of the Allied Powers, the blockade and the attacks on the Revolution by the interventionists were helping to strengthen the power of the Communist regime. But things will change and the masses will awaken to the realisation that no one, no political Party or governmental clique must be permitted in the future to monopolise the Revolution, to control or direct it, for such attempts inevitably result in the death of the Revolution itself.
Various other phases of the Revolution we discussed on that occasion. Kropotkin particularly emphasised the constructive side of revolutions, and especially that the organisation of the economic life must be dealt with as the first and greatest necessity of a revolution, as the foundation of its existence and development.
- We must shed the old stereotype of anarchists as bearded bomb throwers furtively stalking about city streets at night. Kropotkin was a genial man, almost saintly according to some, who promoted a vision of small communities setting their own standards by consensus for the benefit of all, thereby eliminating the need for most functions of a central government.
- Kropotkin ... created a dichotomy within the general notion of struggle — two forms with opposite import: (1) organism against organism of the same species for limited resources, leading to competition; and (2) organism against environment, leading to cooperation. ... Kropotkin did not deny the competitive form of struggle, but he argued that the cooperative style had been underemphasized and must balance or even predominate over competition in considering nature as a whole. ... I would hold that Kropotkin’s basic argument is correct. Struggle does occur in many modes, and some lead to cooperation among members of a species as the best pathway to advantage for individuals. If Kropotkin overemphasized mutual aid, most Darwinians in Western Europe had exaggerated competition just as strongly. If Kropotkin drew inappropriate hope for social reform from his concept of nature, other Darwinians had erred just as firmly (and for motives that most of us would now decry) in justifying imperial conquest, racism, and oppression of industrial workers as the harsh outcome of natural selection in the competitive mode.
- Stephen Jay Gould in "Kropotkin Was No Crackpot" in Natural History 106 (June 1997)
- Two of the most perfect lives I have come across in my own experience are the lives of Verlaine and of Prince Kropotkin: both of them men who have passed years in prison: the first, the one Christian poet since Dante; the other, a man with a soul of that beautiful white Christ which seems coming out of Russia.
- Oscar Wilde, in De Profundis (1897)
- A lot of anarchists had a major role in influencing my political thinking, especially the individualist anarchists. … I find a lot of Kropotkin compatible even though he was a communist anarchist. Nothing wrong with communist anarchism as long as it remains voluntary. Any one that wants to go make a commune, go ahead, do it. I got nothing against it. As long as there's room to the individualist to do his or her own thing.
- To those who knew Kropotkin, the man seemed more important than his works, and throughout our account we have had to record the strong impressions of amiability and goodness left by him. He had many ideological enemies, but few men of celebrity in their own time have had so few personal foes; even those bitterly opposed to his teachings usually found his modesty and sincerity difficult to resist. ... His ideal of human solidarity was no vague conception, nor his amiability a superficial virtue. They were continually manifested in his daily life, and, although he may at times have fallen into error, there is nothing in Kropotkin's acts or writings of intellectual dishonesty. He always spoke what he thought to be right, and was ready to take the consequences, whether it meant imprisonment or — what was much worse to a man of his character — the loss of old and respected friends. He was always kind, anxious to avoid giving pain or inconvenience, and conscious of the needs of others. His hospitality was wide, his sympathy abundant, his generosity as unlimited as his resources allowed.
- George Woodcock and Ivan Avakumovic in Peter Kropotkin : From Prince to Rebel (1990)
- The desire to link theory with practice is evident in almost all Kropotkin's contributions to Le Révolté. He is considering the revolution, not in the apocalyptic form of a vast inferno of destruction which so often haunted Bakunin, but as a concrete event in which the rebellious workers must be aware of the consequences of their actions, so that revolt will not end in the establishment of new organs of power that will halt the natural development of a free society. ... Revolution cannot be made with words alone; a knowledge of the necessary action and a will toward it must also exist.
Philosophy and politics (many userboxes)
TZM | This user advocates The Zeitgeist Movement. |
Philosophy/ politics
|
Recommended intellectuals
L. Susan Brown, Charles Fourier, Michel Foucault, Emile Armand, Paolo Virno, Renzo Novatore, Max Stirner, Bob Black, Judith Butler, Felix Guattari, Michel Onfray, Georges Bataille, Aldous Huxley, Antonio Negri, Raoul Vaneigem, Han Ryner, Hakim Bey, François de La Rochefoucauld, Gilles Deleuze, Paul Lafargue, Wolfi Landstreicher, Albert Camus, Theodor Adorno, Epicurus, Alfredo M. Bonanno, Gilles Deleuze, Herbert Marcuse, Guy Debord, Aristippus, Friedrich Nietzsche, Ivan Illich, For Ourselves, Paul Goodman.
Conflicting Wiki philosophies |
Community Measuring Accuracy The Wiki Process Power structure Encyclopedia standards Notability Collaboration Overall structure Article length Social Miscellaneous |
References
- ^ Or, as my father told me when I was young, "Only a dumb-ass argues with a dumb-ass."
- ^ Laërtius & Hicks 1925, Ⅵ:79 , Plutarch, Moralia, 717c. says he died on the same day as Alexander the Great, which puts his death at 323 BC. Diogenes Laërtius's statement that Diogenes died "nearly 90" would put his year of birth at 412 BC. But Censorinus (De die natali, 15.2) says he died aged 81, which puts his year of birth at 404 BC. The Suda puts his birth at the time of the Thirty Tyrants, which also gives 404 BC.
- ^ Paul Ollswang, "Cynicism: A Series of Cartoons on a Philosophical Theme", January 1988, page B at official site; repr. in The Best Comics of the Decade 1980-1990 Vol. 1, Seattle, 1990, ISBN 1-56097-035-9, p. 23.
- ^ This story appears frequently in books from the 16th to the 19th century, and may be an example of an anecdote invented about Diogenes in modern times. There is a similar anecdote in one of the dialogues of Lucian (Menippus, 15) but that story concerns Menippus in the underworld.
- ^ Laërtius & Hicks 1925, Ⅵ:44
- ^ Cicero, Tusculanae Quaestiones, 5.37.; Plutarch, On Exile, 5.; Epictetus, Discourses, i.9.1.
- ^ Laërtius & Hicks 1925, Ⅵ:63 . Compare: Laërtius & Hicks 1925, Ⅵ:72 , Dio Chrysostom, Or. 4.13, Epictetus, Discourses, iii.24.66.
- ^ Laërtius & Hicks 1925, Ⅵ:24
- ^ Plato, Apology, 41e.
- ^ Xenophon, Apology, 1.
- ^ Laërtius & Hicks 1925, Ⅵ:54 ; Aelian, Varia Historia, 14.33.
- ^ Diogenes of Sinope, quoted by Stobaeus, Florilegium, iii. 13. 44.
- ^ Paul Krugman, Free to be Hungry, The New York Times, 2013.09.23. Quotes: "The word “freedom” looms large in modern conservative rhetoric. Lobbying groups are given names like FreedomWorks; health reform is denounced not just for its cost but as an assault on, yes, freedom." ... "The right’s definition of freedom, however, isn’t one that, say, F.D.R. would recognize. In particular, the third of his famous Four Freedoms — freedom from want — seems to have been turned on its head. Conservatives seem, in particular, to believe that freedom’s just another word for not enough to eat. Hence the war on food stamps, which House Republicans have just voted to cut sharply even while voting to increase farm subsidies." ... "The evidence is now overwhelming that spending cuts in a depressed economy deepen the slump, yet government spending has been falling anyway." ... "while the recession did indeed officially end in 2009, what we’ve had since then is a recovery of, by and for a small number of people at the top of the income distribution, with none of the gains trickling down to the less fortunate." ... "almost two-thirds of SNAP beneficiaries are children, the elderly or the disabled, and most of the rest are adults with children." Top-ranked comment from article reader Socrates, from Downtown Verona, NJ: "That's only the tip of the GOP freedom torture chamber. Not only would they prefer the poor, needy and helpless to starve their way to success, they'd also like them to do it without health insurance, birth control, early childhood education, key infrastructure and educational investments to build a high functioning economy, reasonable regulation to protect society from economic vultures, and without any gun regulation so you can dodge bullets on your ride from the ghetto to the boardroom. GOP 'freedom' doesn't mean freedom - it means wholesale abandonment of society - freedom to be forced to have a child you can't pay for followed by the freedom to die of medical neglect because of an extortionist healthcare system followed by the freedom to receive an underfunded public education followed the the freedom to overpay for inflated college tuition with usury loans followed by depressed wages to support executive sociopathy and corporate welfare. The freedom to carry assault weapons for paranoid Americans is really the freedom to be randomly slaughtered by the paranoid, the insecure, the delusional, and the poorly educated, violent men across America whose futures and economic lives have been crushed by trickle down poverty and GOP redistrubution of assets and incomes upward to the 1%. Their idea of freedom is for the 99% to die in the street while the 1% get another tax cut, GOP freedom is feudalism for dummies."
Humor and miscellanea
- International Association of Time Travelers: Members' Forum Subforum: Europe – Twentieth Century – Second World War
- WikiSpeak
- User: Psychonaut's old(er) user page. (Hat tip to user Psychonaut)
- It Is Impossible to Believe How Mindblowing These Amazing New Jobs Are. "Our venture-funded vertical-driven content prosumer phablet platisher is rapidly growing and we need to add some Ninja Rockstar Content Associates A.S.A.P. ... Successful applicants will demonstrate the ability to never mention the issue of socio-economic class." (Hat tip to Susan Cagle)
- "I wanted to restate the way that the original statement has been stated by restating the statement." A diff of an act of vandalism. I take a hard line on vandalism, I always revert vandalism when I see it, and I either report acts of abusive editing to the proper administrative boards and request that the vandal be blocked, or I try to warn and educate the vandal. I find almost all acts of vandalism not interesting to read, but on a rare occasion I come across some creative, inventive, clever, vandal-produced humor that makes me laugh hard. It's nice to read something funny in the evening after a long, difficult, stressful day at the office. (If you are the vandal who wrote this, please don't take this as a vote of encouragement ... )
- Do you think he (Osama bin Laden) was a dog lover or a cat lover?
More humor - from User: Good Olfactory (GOF)
(Hat tip to User: Good Olfactory)
What you are looking to find out about me (GOF) can be found embedded within the source code of the userboxes on this page. The hidden meaning can be revealed using a delicate combination of sudoku and banburismus implemented on an original Polish Enigma double (check eBay). (Hint: "U"s are treated as "V"s and the value of any "Z"s and "Q"s are carried over every third pass and combined with the corresponding pass value of "K".)
Some quotes
- legal threat par excellence: [309]
- assumption of bad faith par excellence [310]
- sarcasm par excellence: [311]
- on discussing Category:White African footballers: [312]
- on incivility in its various forms: [313]
Museum of Stuffed Insults: the only price of admission is not complaining to GOF on his talk page that the museum exists
Templates
|
Inline messages
Code | Result | Code | Result | |
---|---|---|---|---|
{{By whom}} | {{Examples}} | |||
{{Citequote}} | {{Full}} | |||
{{Citation broken}} | {{Failed verification}} | |||
{{Citation needed}} | {{Or}} | |||
{{Citation needed (lead)}} | {{Season needed}} | |||
{{Clarify}} | {{Specify}} | |||
{{Copyvio link}} | {{Self-published inline}} | |||
{{Dead link}} | {{Vague}} | |||
{{Dubious}} | {{Verify credibility}} | |||
{{Elucidate}} | {{Verify source}} | |||
{{Volume needed}} | {{When}} | |||
{{Where}} | {{Which}} | |||
{{Who}} | {{Whom?}} | |||
{{Why}} | {{Year needed}} | |||
{{User:Honette/Template/Full name}} | {{expand acronym}} |
This is a Wikipedia user page. This is not an encyclopedia article or the talk page for an encyclopedia article. If you find this page on any site other than Wikipedia, you are viewing a mirror site. Be aware that the page may be outdated and that the user whom this page is about may have no personal affiliation with any site other than Wikipedia. The original page is located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:IjonTichyIjonTichy. |